52 replies to this topic

[Natus]

Sarcasm is required when someone will not understand their decision is a foolish concept. It seems to be the only way to illicite a point or put something forward unfortuanately, and while I am sure you will pose some vague and barren counter argument, it is noted among a great many people of your distinct lack of being able to listen.

Regardless wether previously, this was a a HL, Pac Man, Space Invaders or what not community is irrellevent. There is already an existing core community, and trying to expand it into an area which it has not been in, nor aimed at previously, is pointless.

So you propose someone from this community runs that? But surely, with you leading the Network Leaders, surely their all tied up ensuring Revora is kept afloat. Therefore, if indeed, were all so busy, how would anyone be able to make this work hm?

If, indeed, as you say, your evaluating, then what is your final evaluation considering, once more after the millionth time, the flaws and distinct lack of pro's.

Scaring off the mappers etc in this argument. Intriguing, but surely, if we had any, regardless of the argument, they would have gladly posted. But instead, what do we have. I would doubt one person here would say their a SC mapper, let alone two or three.

[Hostile]

I'm not suggesting we should not have an SC division. I'm all for it. IF we have a person spiritually dedicated to the project. I mean they would have to live and die SC2.

If they don't than why waste the time? Remember T3A came out AFTER the game did. So I personally modded it and found it a feasible project.

You can't do this with a game not released yet. Look at CNC3.net. Here we sit waiting for an SDK.

When will it come, I do not know, and when it does, will I still show?

If I tried to launch a division on a game not yet released and it was not as popular as cnc3? Would I even have a chance?

@2pg

the fact that we are the only BFME Modding Community out there also helps quite a bit
I don't think you'll get that with Starcraft

My friend, we were not always, the rest have just become irrelevant because we won the BFME modding battle.

[Banshee]

Sarcasm is required when someone will not understand their decision is a foolish concept. It seems to be the only way to illicite a point or put something forward unfortuanately, and while I am sure you will pose some vague and barren counter argument, it is noted among a great many people of your distinct lack of being able to listen.

Required is not the correct word here. It is an option and I consider it a bad option, unless the conversation doesn't get friendly anymore. In this case, sarcasm is better than flames.

And I have to admit that I start skipping things when there are too much bitching together, but I read a lot of what you guys say and when I disagree at it, it doesn't mean I'm not reading.

Regardless wether previously, this was a a HL, Pac Man, Space Invaders or what not community is irrellevent. There is already an existing core community, and trying to expand it into an area which it has not been in, nor aimed at previously, is pointless.

If it depends on your logic, Revora will never expand in the next 500 years. It would just shrink. I'm sorry, but I disagree with it. I agree with what Hostile said about about the possibility of expanding the community with a person spiritually dedicated to the project.

So you propose someone from this community runs that? But surely, with you leading the Network Leaders, surely their all tied up ensuring Revora is kept afloat. Therefore, if indeed, were all so busy, how would anyone be able to make this work hm?

I am not proposing someone of this community. I'm looking for someone from this community who could be capable and interested at running such division and evaluating the possibility of starting a division with this person. That is all.

If, indeed, as you say, your evaluating, then what is your final evaluation considering, once more after the millionth time, the flaws and distinct lack of pro's.

At the moment, my conclusion is that we have no one able to start this division and that it would be a waste of resources at this exact moment.

Scaring off the mappers etc in this argument. Intriguing, but surely, if we had any, regardless of the argument, they would have gladly posted. But instead, what do we have. I would doubt one person here would say their a SC mapper, let alone two or three.

Starcraft or Warcraft mappers would be welcomed. I've worked in a warcraft III map some years ago and I must say that the map editor rocks and it's very easy to work with it.

Remember T3A came out AFTER the game did. So I personally modded it and found it a feasible project.

You can't do this with a game not released yet. Look at CNC3.net. Here we sit waiting for an SDK.

When will it come, I do not know, and when it does, will I still show?

If I tried to launch a division on a game not yet released and it was not as popular as cnc3? Would I even have a chance?

Excelent post and excelent point. Maybe we should wait the game to be released before looking for a group of people here to start a Starcraft II division.

[ched]

While in Hostile's experience it seems that unleasing Sections before the game comes out is pointless, I think that we should think of plans before Starcraft 2 comes out.

Surely, T3A succeeded despite having been produced after the game's release, but that's because Hostile was venturing in a market that had never been filled before, for an entirely new franchise. Most sites just had a modding subforum, filled with ignorants requesting things. Hostile succeed in gathering the few who knew-to, and we all know how that turned out.
T3A has imposed itself in a universe that was not yet explored. What's more, T3A could be launched very quickly, seeing that tutorials already existed for the SAGE engine.

CNC3.net would be a massive hit if the SDK had come out in time. They would be the number #1 place for CNC3 newbie modders. The few bits of modding are coming of Derelict ATM, hacking into files.
The community is composed of ex BfME and older CNC games, both from Revora.

A SC2 community would need similar preparations to be a success.
We're not venturing into a virgin forest there. The community exists, and we need to gather it, be it by hosting successful WC3/SC maps, or just attracting their attention in any manner.
The person leading it would have to prepare a few tutorials and get some knowledge of Blizzard's tools, seeing that the engine will probably be an improvement of Blizzard's previous games.

[Solinx]

Sigh...

Could you not all stop arguing about this?

Is there a market for mapping SC II? - Yes
If you take a look at the number of SC 1 and WC III maps, there is a good chance there will be an audience for the game, even if it won't look that good graphic wise. You can't say those who still play SC 1 play it for the graphics.


Any chance of getting a SC division at Revora? - Nearly 0, and decreasing with the minute.
Sure enough, the chances of having a division for SC 2 (and 1?) are getting increasingly slim here. Not just because of this continued argument, but also because the request has been up for a while already, and clearly there has been noone close to volunteering for the job, as Natus states in his last post. As a third point, Natus is right again when he notes that there are already communities for SC, which will undoubtedly continue to exist and focus on SC II mapping when it is released. We would likely have a hard time competing with them.


Goal of this topic - Inquiry
This topic is to inquire whether there is any interest in having a SC II division. At the same time, it offers you all the opportunity to step forward to run that division.

Seeing as there is no interest yet, let alone someone to run the place, I should say the current line is pretty clear.
Of course, if tomorrow a bunch of people have posted their interest and a suitable division leader steps up, that all changes.


Is Revora to stay C&C only? - No
The argument that Revora is a C&C only community and should stay like that is rubbish. For one, there are also DoW and the succesful T3A. For another, if we stick with only C&C games, there is no more expansion possible for quite a while. Communities need to evolve to stay active. We can't wait for EA to release another game in a few years. Third, I think a clash between EA and Blizzard fans is unlikely, as most members stay inside specific divisions they are interested in. If they visit both EA and Blizzard divisions, I doubt they'd bash either. At the least nowhere near enough to wreck the whole community, or overload moderators.



New divisions...
Staying with RTS is a good plan. It's easier to interest the current members into modding that type of games. SC is actually a RTS game, but one that's apparently not loved here.

Hostile makes a good note about only starting divisions for games that are already released. Best would probably be newly released games, which don't have a big and well established community about them yet.
On the other hand, it won't hurt to have some matter prepared before the game is well released. Just a small start and kept private untill the game shows real potential for a good Revora division.


Instead of continueing this argument on the (lack of) potential of a SC II division, I'm interested in hearing from you all which games you do think would be good potential divisions for Revora.
Naturally, this comes with the disclamer that we're not automatically going to start any and all of the divisions you name, but when more than 1 person names a game, I will take a look at that game and perhaps we can compile a list from which the next Revora division(s) can be chosen.

BTW. You're all free to name whatever gametype you want, not just RTS. It's nice and easy to say that RTS modders are more interested in RTS games, but you're all individuals, liking more than just RTS games. If you'd like to see a division for a FPS/RPG/... type of game at Revora, and there are enough other members who support it, why reject it for not being an RTS game?

Solinx

[Ash]

Were I female, I would wish to bear Natus' children, in the hope that sarcasm was a genetic trait. If it was, the resultant progeny would cover the whole world in humiliation and ridicule.

Natus does make some exceedingly good points, though.

On a lighter note, if you're going to make a fansite which, for all intents and purposes, that's all an SC2 division would be, make it for Sims 2 or Spore. You might as well.

And as a side note, Infinite War ddin't fail because there was no content per se. It failed because I lack the skill and enthusiasm atm to make any. Additionally, the game was, from a community perspective, a flop. It just wasn't good enough as a game.

[Natus]

Fine, I will play the civil card. Solinx offers some intriguing points, and while I will conceed partially in regards to his point regarding expansion, I also put forward some irrefutible facts again.

All choices to date have been poor. Something I find entertaining thus far has been;

Revora has supported a number of games either from the wrong genre (FPS) or games which attempting to mod and support have been pointless. And yes, I do include DoW for a very specific reason.

Check the DoW forum. Second you do, you notice one particular thing - the majority of threads are for one specific mod, or not so much a mod, but an AI improvement. Now, let us recap, we want to expand, yet we have one project mainly being mentioned, with no mods hosted or even solid info. Infact I got to page 4 before I found anything proper not involving the DoW AI. A bad choice to support, regardless of results. The move into BF and HL were also folly's. And yet, all the, while we choose to go into games with zero relation to us and the community at large.

RTS support is as suggested, ideal, however, would it not make sense, instead of going blindly into something and screwing up once again, someone decides to use some grey matter and evaluate options better? Look at the facts instead before suggesting something, and if your using proper logic and see something plausable without an already massive community yet offering something big and needing support, approach then, and only after double checking the facts.


But an interesting side note, that makes me wonder... Does it not reflect on a few Network leaders who backed supporting these failed attempts that maybe their leadership is not quite so good hm? And whoever thinks this is aimed at them, well, guilty conscious. But, if you do not, most likely scenario, you recognise the same as I.

Just something to think about.


EDIT: Poaching the final request Solinx makes, it is not about merely suggesting a game, but evaluating its potential before suggestion. The problem with Revora is it takes a approach of supporting anything, I mean check the forums in RA2 and Generals mod sections, no offence, but half the projects either never left the ground, or had deadly flaws since conception, some were given a forum yet made not a single post for over 2 months, which I have seen. Examples;

RA2

http://forums.revora...p?showforum=765
http://forums.revora...?showforum=1138
http://forums.revora...?showforum=1250
http://forums.revora...p?showforum=940
http://forums.revora...p?showforum=309
http://forums.revora...?showforum=1373

Generals

http://forums.revora...?showforum=1027
http://forums.revora...?showforum=1318
http://forums.revora...p?showforum=690
http://forums.revora...?showforum=1167
http://forums.revora...?showforum=1370

A very devil may care attitude, and one that needs altering. Encouragin an open ended hosting scheme is one thing, hosting anything that pops out a single model of a bucket with a texture for a leaf is something different. We need to clean up whats already dumped around here, then sort out the management style done. Simple as.

But, let us say by some miracle, these issues are addressed, and, by the holy light of Pavarotti's arse, people figure out we cannot expand with Revora being managed as it is, then I would suggest a criteria for supporting games using a template such as this, as an example;

- Game popularity
- Game Moddability
- Size of existing community
- Genre of said game
- How it would fit in with the current genre were covering
- Who could be trusted to support the game, and are they sure they can make it work


Simple as, instead of just jumping in and saying "Can we host this!" or "OMG teh gam3z0r roxx w3 n33d to h0st!", all factors above should be addressed properly, and any major flaws should immediattely nullify its hosting potential, as such, the flaws in SC2.

Edited by Natus, 27 May 2007 - 10:33 PM.

[Solinx]

Fine, I will play the civil card. Solinx offers some intriguing points, and while I will conceed partially in regards to his point regarding expansion, I also put forward some irrefutible facts again.

Thanks

All choices to date have been poor. Something I find entertaining thus far has been;

Revora has supported a number of games either from the wrong genre (FPS) or games which attempting to mod and support have been pointless. And yes, I do include DoW for a very specific reason.

Check the DoW forum. Second you do, you notice one particular thing - the majority of threads are for one specific mod, or not so much a mod, but an AI improvement. Now, let us recap, we want to expand, yet we have one project mainly being mentioned, with no mods hosted or even solid info. Infact I got to page 4 before I found anything proper not involving the DoW AI. A bad choice to support, regardless of results. The move into BF and HL were also folly's. And yet, all the, while we choose to go into games with zero relation to us and the community at large.

DoW is succesful enough on it's own. Not interesting to you perhaps, but the AI project is definetly worth the hosting of a division. The resource usage is low and it really takes almost zero time and effort to keep it supported. Why dump it? Because it's not as big as CNC Guild?

The HL and BF divisions are from before my time. However, I did read topics in the BF division to see what made it fail, and it's simply the disappearance of the game server that ended that division. It wasn't really clear what exactly happened to the server, although there are some indications that the problems were on the server side, not Revora. The popularity of the division at the time there was actually a server was high, just take a look at the news item announcing the BF server. Had there still been a gameserver now, the place would still have been active. We lack staff and financial resources to set one back up, so that's pretty much the end of any thoughts to restart the division.

But an interesting side note, that makes me wonder... Does it not reflect on a few Network leaders who backed supporting these failed attempts that maybe their leadership is not quite so good hm? And whoever thinks this is aimed at them, well, guilty conscious. But, if you do not, most likely scenario, you recognise the same as I.

Just something to think about.

Personally, I have just archived the Community Project, a project mainly supported by me. In a sense, it has failed. Afterall, it didn't attract enough people to keep it active. From another point of view, it did learn me, and others, something about the Revora community, setting up a division and running a division.

From the start, none of us had high expectancies with it, but still, because there was at least a bit of interest, we opened the division. We opened it to give members the chance to make something out of it. The only thing we risked was spending a small bit of time on setting up a forum and helping the staff on the way. To me, just the experience was worth the effort, and thus personally, I don't consider it a completely failed project. The project didn't get a lot of interest, but if it had, it would have been a nice way to bring members from different divisions together on one project.

And Im not feeling guilty here, if that's what you're thinking now
It failed, and that's a shame, but if you never try, you're never going to succeed.

RTS support is as suggested, ideal, however, would it not make sense, instead of going blindly into something and screwing up once again, someone decides to use some grey matter and evaluate options better? Look at the facts instead before suggesting something, and if your using proper logic and see something plausable without an already massive community yet offering something big and needing support, approach then, and only after double checking the facts.

EDIT: Poaching the final request Solinx makes, it is not about merely suggesting a game, but evaluating its potential before suggestion. The problem with Revora is it takes a approach of supporting anything, I mean check the forums in RA2 and Generals mod sections, no offence, but half the projects either never left the ground, or had deadly flaws since conception, some were given a forum yet made not a single post for over 2 months, which I have seen. Examples;

<EXAMPLES>

A very devil may care attitude, and one that needs altering. Encouragin an open ended hosting scheme is one thing, hosting anything that pops out a single model of a bucket with a texture for a leaf is something different. We need to clean up whats already dumped around here, then sort out the management style done. Simple as.

But, let us say by some miracle, these issues are addressed, and, by the holy light of Pavarotti's arse, people figure out we cannot expand with Revora being managed as it is, then I would suggest a criteria for supporting games using a template such as this, as an example;

- Game popularity
- Game Moddability
- Size of existing community
- Genre of said game
- How it would fit in with the current genre were covering
- Who could be trusted to support the game, and are they sure they can make it work


Simple as, instead of just jumping in and saying "Can we host this!" or "OMG teh gam3z0r roxx w3 n33d to h0st!", all factors above should be addressed properly, and any major flaws should immediattely nullify its hosting potential, as such, the flaws in SC2.

Setting up a division is not the same as hosting a mod. And the requirements of hosting are not set by the NL, but rather by the division leaders/division staff. Still, I suppose you could compare the two to some extend.

You gave examples from CNC Guild, I'll give a fine example of a hosting request at T3A. Last Alliance hosting request
As you can see, there are standards at T3A. There is always a small (or sometimes big) discussion in the Team Chamber about a hosting request. (BTW. He did get hosted after the second request.)

Everyone can get hosted at T3A, as long as he or she shows good behaviour as a member, shows dedication to the project, and if the project shows some minimum quality and/or originality.

These standards were first set up by Hostile, and we stand by them still. No doubt he will set the same standards at CNC3.net.


Just as potential T3A hostees are judged on various aspects, so do we judge potential divisions on various, different, aspects. The more so now, with resources no longer being limited only in the time and effort of ourselves and the staff of the new division, but also by the server capabilities, and thus our financial status.

There is a reason for the disclaimer at the end of the request.

Solinx

[ambershee]

The problem with Revora is it takes a approach of supporting anything, I mean check the forums in RA2 and Generals mod sections, no offence, but half the projects either never left the ground, or had deadly flaws since conception, some were given a forum yet made not a single post for over 2 months

I've hardly had a post in my forums so far this year, and the most recent few have been unexpected. Just because the forums aren't active doesn't mean the project isn't; my own project 'BloodSport' has been going for nearly 12 months now, at a fairly unsteady rate. While sadly, a lot of projects do suffer that sort of fate, you can't always determine which will and which won't before they're given a chance.

[Hostile]

Unkown to many, I thought about starting two new divisions along the way. Earth 2160 and Galactic Civilizations II. I researched 2160 and found modding it was very much there if you could kiss the ass of the right deveolper to believe in you and give it to you.

My lips aren't big enough to kiss someones ass for a fucking SDK. But that is what you have to do for 2160. I said "not a feasible division"

GC2 is not as moddable as I would have wanted. As much as I love playing the game. I'm mature enough to know to just play the game and not try to do something that's it's not capable of. I said "not a feasible division"

And these games are already released for some time. I would be more intent on finding out the feasibility of SUpreme Commander than any other game right now. It's rts, it's released, and it's not at Revora.

If I was GONNA think about a new division, that whould be one worth researching it's feasbility.

[Natus]

Well, continuing the logic put forward, hosting a division should be treated with a "Guilty until proven innocent approach". Simple fact is, the one division you mention Solinx is just that, a single division. Divisions should not be opened unless the community wants it. And enough of the commmunity at that.

Regarding the finger pointing note I made, it was made to make sure those who have screwed up, know they have been caught out, if they feel they have been targetted, then it is indeed for a reason. A accusation shrouded in a vague manner makes those who are pointless or screwed up either go on the offensive or try to make ammends. Simple as.

Ambershee, you are a uniquety. I will not lie. The general developers of mods do it for public attention and appreciattion. They will shout from the rooftops on their unique items on offer, but when the overall foray' dies down, they do not care and will abandon. As is the case of atleast 95% of the mods I have listed (I give 5% leeway on the idea that miracolously one of them is still being developed).

Hostile, you solidify my point. I adored GCII and hosted a map and utility site for it upon release. It proved to be a success with their community as it offered support, utilities and maps for both GCI and II. However as the community dwindled, so did the hits, and eventually, the site was terminated due to the number of hits being given. Therefore I can easily recognise either sleeper hits, out right successes or complete follys. Hence my opposition to the SC2 hosting after taking into account the rather massive flaws of such a thing.

Bottom line, there are section on Revora with little to no proper development and supervision, and overall, its attempts at expansion overall have been fatally flawed. Therefore either a change of management or a change of ethics is needed.

A major problem with your expansion tactics is its inversive. No affiliation or resource sharing with other different and varied networks out there. Model developers, for example are rather universal. From model developer networks you could easily get into communities with other genres e.g. a successful shot at FPS development or such. The simple bridge put up with new divisions is poorly designed. But if you use cement instead of wood... Well, maths are simple. Expansion can be as simple as affiliation and share of resources and finding things in common. It takes footwork, knowlegde, a keen mind and the occasional use of more subversive tactics.

[Paladin58]

Pointless. Starcraft lacks any real mod community, and the few who do mod it do not get far. Plus, odds will be its modability will be piss poor. If you were interested in expanding Revora. go into something more mod friendly. E.g. Supreme Commander, or, failing that, The Elder Scrolls. Both offer excellent mod communities, plus, the TES mod community is over 10 times the size of the C&C community, even in its golden years.

The Natus speaks the truth. Along with TES, that will also carry over all of the Fallout modders as well, as Fallout 3 will be using Gamebryo, the same engine as TES.

[Solinx]

Well, continuing the logic put forward, hosting a division should be treated with a "Guilty until proven innocent approach". Simple fact is, the one division you mention Solinx is just that, a single division. Divisions should not be opened unless the community wants it. And enough of the commmunity at that.

I learned that and other things with the Community Project. Hence I found it not to be worthless

Ambershee, you are a uniquety. I will not lie. The general developers of mods do it for public attention and appreciattion. They will shout from the rooftops on their unique items on offer, but when the overall foray' dies down, they do not care and will abandon. As is the case of atleast 95% of the mods I have listed (I give 5% leeway on the idea that miracolously one of them is still being developed).

Sadly, I share your experience here. The problem is that it's often hard to tell what a new, unknown, team will produce. Either an award winning mod, or an abandoned project. With the requirements set at T3A we shift out a lot of the later, but it isn't fool proof. Real life also causes a lot of projects to end before being finished, or even properly started (School, social life, work, etc.)

Bottom line, there are section on Revora with little to no proper development and supervision, and overall, its attempts at expansion overall have been fatally flawed. Therefore either a change of management or a change of ethics is needed.

With sections, I assume you mean divisions...

CNC Guild is still a bit unknown to me, but has little left to develop I believe.
CNC 3 is awaiting the SDK before it can finally start being an active modding division.
BFME/T3A is doing well.
DoW is running well on it's own, without expansion plans.
EaW is not doing well at the moment, but being kept up until UaW comes out, after which the future of this division will be reviewed.
The RPG Guild has seen quite a number of members go lately, rendering many stories disrupted/discontinued.

I suspect your views regarding DoW and EaW to be different, and of CNC Guild too perhaps.
From the list I made, the later two are cause for concern, which we are certainly aware of, but the rest is not doing bad at all.

Expansion efforts could have gone better in the past, that is true. Tho not all things could have been forseen to happen as they did. Each case has it's story. In any case, lessons are learned there. We all know the trouble a stumbling division gives.

A major problem with your expansion tactics is its inversive. No affiliation or resource sharing with other different and varied networks out there. Model developers, for example are rather universal. From model developer networks you could easily get into communities with other genres e.g. a successful shot at FPS development or such. The simple bridge put up with new divisions is poorly designed. But if you use cement instead of wood... Well, maths are simple. Expansion can be as simple as affiliation and share of resources and finding things in common. It takes footwork, knowlegde, a keen mind and the occasional use of more subversive tactics.

Good points, although I doubt the process will be as simple as you make believe, good points tho. An affiliate is actually exactly what we will be looking for to partially replace RC Alert. There is too little interest at Revora itself to set up a graphical artist community. Having a good affiliate focused on that, we no longer need to worry about tutorials or guides, or a place for our members to ask questions regarding artistic subjects.

Important Note: None of the hostees will lose their hosting. That's the part that stays at Revora, unless the affiliate has a similar, or better, accomodation and things can be worked out between all those involved.

Pointless. Starcraft lacks any real mod community, and the few who do mod it do not get far. Plus, odds will be its modability will be piss poor. If you were interested in expanding Revora. go into something more mod friendly. E.g. Supreme Commander, or, failing that, The Elder Scrolls. Both offer excellent mod communities, plus, the TES mod community is over 10 times the size of the C&C community, even in its golden years.

The Natus speaks the truth. Along with TES, that will also carry over all of the Fallout modders as well, as Fallout 3 will be using Gamebryo, the same engine as TES.

Thanks, I'll add Fallout 3 to the list to look into this weekend. TES is already on it.

Solinx