900 replies to this topic

[Pendaelose]

but theres no need to believe/worship in him if you want to be "good". believing in him doesnt automatically make you good. its how you were brought up and your moral and concious decisions that make you good and choose the right things to do. if you think that believing in him automatically makes you good....then if i believe/worship the devil but am the kindest man on earth...giving to charity etc all that stuff than does that make me automatically bad?

I never said that belief is "good" or that you're "bad" if you don't. But I do think that a general belief in Good or Bad is more than a little suggestive that theres a failure in pure athiesim. Athiesim fails to acount for the entire concept of "good" or "bad". If you are not judged, you cannot be good or bad. Weather or not you beleive or have faith is an issue entirely seperate from my own point. I simply believe that a beleif you should be good is implistic that there something more than a purely physical exsistance. I personaly take the leap and say thats where God fits into the picture.

I guess what I'm getting at is I find pure Athiesim deeply flawed as it is a justification for the abolishment of moral values. You may not use it as such, but the fundamental arguement that thier is NO spiritual aspect to life and that our exsistance is limited to only the biological funtions of our body is a very shallow and week veiw on life.

I frown on aithiesim, but I tollerate Agnostisism, and most people don't know the difference, but the difference is VERY profound in what it implies. Agnostisism is simply the beleif that super natural mysteries, such as god/s or the soul are issues that we will never undrestand... not a conviction that all religion is false, just an apathy towards understanding. Without the conviction that there is nothing beyond the physical, agnostisim lacks the self destructive, and abusive attitude of true athiesim.

If you beleive there is NOTHING beyond the physical then it becomes justifiable to do horrible things to anyone because you have nothing to loose and no reason to be kind.


now, BIBLICLY, I will point out that Christan faith is very clear that "being good" does not get you into heaven. Repenting for your sins and accepting Christ gets you into heaven, because NO ONE is good enough to get into heaven on thier own Merit... thus, the only way is to ask Christ to forgive you for your sins and then he will accept you into heaven. I'm sure you've heard all of this before, I'm just pointing out some interesting aspects of it. Being good or bad is not what gets you into heaven (from a strict christian perspective)

[olli]

hmm...
well the difference between aethism and being agnostic is that an atheist doesnt believe in god or any supreme being, while some one whos agnostic is not so sure.

pend, you pose a very good arguement. head on over to this link and voice your opinion.
http://forums.revora...p?showforum=529
mos tof those topics are to do with religion and very philosopical topics.
go ahead and read some

[Gredinus]

There is no things as pure Atheism becose every person belives in something.
Fo Evil and Good i have a smililar belief like the chinase have with jing & jang, nothing is pure good nor pure evil.

[Phoenix911]

I always thought it was "ying yang"

[Gredinus]

Whatever ;P

P.S. It depends in witch Language.

[ApOcOlYpS]

I'm more scientific than religious. And I love the tea kettle comment on the last page. There's one thing I want to put out there.
Why does so much in our life rely on giving so much trust into such an untrustfull race?
I'll voice more on this in a day or 2.

Anyway, as I said, I am more scientific (and mathimatical) than religious. Another thing you have to take into when considering religion is, what if our religion is wrong. What if some other religion is the correct one. Not saying the one we should believe in, but if a religion is true, the one that is as such. Then, what if if you don't believe in that religion, you go to it's version of "hell". NOW, what if we convert all people to christianity, then everyone has no after-life. (this is all hypothetical). NOW (ive said that like 5 times now), what if the souls of people are recycled in that religion.(a person dies and goes to the end of a line, a person is born, the first person in that line is sent to that body, but only the good souls stay, and are VERY rarely, if ever, replenished in some way, or just there's a massive ammount.). Then, if that occures for many years, there is a vacancy of souls. People stop being born, and we all die. Kind of a long term apocolyptic scenerio.

On another... wave length I'll say, I'm going to comment on the topic of "morality". First off, if the majority of America is Christian, and the right thing is not to kill, why do so many go to war. Also, is not one form of a species survival to band togeather and support each other (being generous/"good"). Just because you're trying to survive, doesn't mean that you will violently do so. That is more of the, Get out, you're endangering my family and ME, idea. On a side note, has anyone heard of the string theory (though it be old)? Back on topic. Acctually. I'm pretty talked out.

[Pendaelose]

I'm more scientific than religious. And I love the tea kettle comment on the last page. There's one thing I want to put out there.
Why does so much in our life rely on giving so much trust into such an untrustfull race?
I'll voice more on this in a day or 2.

...NOW (ive said that like 5 times now), what if the souls of people are recycled in that religion.(a person dies and goes to the end of a line, a person is born, the first person in that line is sent to that body, but only the good souls stay, and are VERY rarely, if ever, replenished in some way, or just there's a massive ammount.). Then, if that occures for many years, there is a vacancy of souls. People stop being born, and we all die. Kind of a long term apocolyptic scenerio.

this argument specificly I feel I can dispute pretty easily. Of the "Major" religions none of them include this kind of arguement. As theres no substancial group of worshipers, no sush religion could possible contribute enough "good" souls back into the re-incarnation soul pool to keep the speices going. Now, add to that, the fact that Births out pace deaths, it doesn't matter if 99% of the souls were being recycled, we would still out pace the supply and hit a population cap. If even 1% of souls were lost to atrition (bad souls not being recylced) then within 100 years we would still be extinct.

so either way this hypothetical religion dooms all humanity.

...Also, is not one form of a species survival to band togeather and support each other (being generous/"good"). Just because you're trying to survive, doesn't mean that you will violently do so. That is more of the, Get out, you're endangering my family and ME, idea....

I don't think Morality can be atributed to evolution because evolution is the exclusive result of individual genes being passed on. the community lacks the ability to counter this as the comunity does not breed, individuals breed. Those who breed most succesfuly will pass on the dominant traits to the successive generations. This is the nature of evolution. Ants work as a comunity because there is only a single DNA pool providing the behavior of the comunity, the queen. Any time you see a very structured animal comunity the breeding is almost always controled by an exclusive group... the dominant male, or a queen female. the more openly an animal breeds within its comunity the less structured the comunity is.

"Morality" as you describe it is a trait you would expect in an Ant-like comunity, not an an open comunity such as humans. The reason is simple. In an ant hill, the only way the genetics will be passed on to another generation is if the colony protects the queen and works togeather. The individuals who contribute to this simply don't breed at all and cannot contribute to evolution. If they have a genetic fault that makes them selfish or evil it can't be passed on, the gene dies with them. If the queen has such a gene, the whole colony is effected and the colony fails. thus preventing the passing of the gene.

In a more open comiunity everyone is capable of breeding. Now, when someone behaves in a self serving fashion and they prosper they have the oportunity to breed that genetic trait back into the comunity. If that behavior causes the individual to be "successful" that trait becomes dominant. Humans are such a speices. Assholes and those who abse thier neighbors actualy tend to prosper... notably at the expense of thier neighbors. the only reason they can survive and prosper this way is because thier neighbors cling to "morality". In this case, "morality" actualy works counter productivly by allowing "imoral" behavior to persist like a tumor on society.

If morality were simply a genetic consequence it would have been bread out of us a long time ago.

[Death_Pheonix]

i believe in a universe far more complex than the human brain could ever comprehend or imagine.

[Gredinus]

Pend you forgot that some religions have that you can reincarnate as a other animal and the other way orund.

[Pendaelose]

Pend you forgot that some religions have that you can reincarnate as a other animal and the other way orund.

but those religions also don't suggest a limited pool of souls. I was refereing directly to the hypothetical situation in the previous post. Where the souls go is of no consequence in my counter point.

[Phoenix911]

How did we get into this kinda topic >.<

and this is
drink???

[Gredinus]

Maybe becose we dont have eanything beather to do ;P

[Stubbs]

There is no things as pure Atheism becose every person belives in something.
Fo Evil and Good i have a smililar belief like the chinase have with jing & jang, nothing is pure good nor pure evil.

Absolutely incorrect. I am a pure atheist. I believe in no nonsense whatsoever, and neither do many of my close friends. We are animals - biological machines that are just little cogs in a ridiculously complicated system. We are next to nothing, but have a very high opinion of ourselves, and that is where the idea that an awesome being must have created us comes from - pure arrogance.

[Pendaelose]

My problem with pure aithism is simply that it encourages selfish behaviors. Why should you possibly care about hurting another animal? Or anything for that matter?

I see aithism as an excuse to absolve one's self of all responsabiliy. and THAT I have a problem with.

[Stubbs]

My problem with pure aithism is simply that it encourages selfish behaviors. Why should you possibly care about hurting another animal? Or anything for that matter?

I see aithism as an excuse to absolve one's self of all responsabiliy. and THAT I have a problem with.

You are choosing religion because you want it to be true. It's not about what makes you a better person, it's about what is actually true. Atheism encourages nothing but rational thought.
Oh, and as for hurting another animal - how many wars have been started over atheism? How many people kill in the name of there not being a God? That's right, none.

Unrelated: Pendaelose, I need your help BADLY with Remix, will you please add me to msn - mike_stubbs1@hotmail.com . Olli is trying his hardest to help me but we can't work it out

[Death_Pheonix]

but those religions also don't suggest a limited pool of souls. I was refereing directly to the hypothetical situation in the previous post. Where the souls go is of no consequence in my counter point.

well if you believe in an infinite amount of parallel universes than a limited soul pool could be very possible, in one universe life is expanding, in the other it is diminishing. it is very possible. as for me, i think the universe is very complex, beyond human imagination and comprehension. i don't see the point of arguing about it, No one will win.

[Pendaelose]

I don't think it was ever an arguement designed to "win"... its just extremely off topic banter.

[Gredinus]

Yeah, Pends seems to be forgeting the difrance betwen morale and religion.

[olli]

http://emuse.ebaumsw...flash/play/1888
that film is so funny, and they have a soundboard for it!

[Phoenix911]

seen before lol.