25 replies to this topic

[MaryJo]

yeah, that s.o.b did it.. this is taken from cnn.com HERE

Venezuelan police on Sunday used water cannons and what appeared to be tear gas to break up thousands of demonstrators protesting the government's decision to close the country's most-watched television station.

The protest began in front of National Telecommunications Commission headquarters after members of the National Guard seized broadcast equipment, including antennas, the result of a Supreme Court order on Friday.

During the clash, two or three bullets were shot into a nearby traffic light, police said. Soon afterward, the director of the Metropolitan Police, Juan Francisco Romero, pointed to the light, and said on television that police were "not going to accept the situation."

It was not immediately clear who had fired the shots.

Police told The Associated Press that at least four officers were slightly injured after some of the protesters threw rocks and bottles.

After police stopped using the water cannons, the crowd regrouped, and video of the scene showed a peaceful mood, with people waving flags and chanting as night fell.

Inside the studios of Radio Caracas Television, employees cried and chanted
"Freedom!" on camera, AP reported.

"We are living an injustice," presenter Eyla Adrian said, according to AP. "I wish that tonight would never come."

President Hugo Chavez announced in January that the government would not renew the broadcast license for the station, long an outlet for opposition parties.

Chavez has accused the station of supporting the failed 2002 coup against him and violating broadcast laws.

He called the station's soap operas "pure poison" that promote capitalism, according to AP.

RCTV, which has been broadcasting for 53 years, is slated to be off the air at midnight. It will be replaced by a state-run station.

"To refuse to grant a new license for the most popular and oldest television channel in the country because the government disagrees with the editorial or political views of this channel, which are obviously critical to Chavez, is a case of censorship," said Jose Miguel Vivanco, executive director of Human Rights Watch.

"We have arrived at totalitarianism," said Marcel Granier, president of Empresas 1BC, which owns RCTV.

"We will reorganize and continue working. One is beginning a fight -- not violent, but active, very active."

Granier accused Chavez of being "afraid of free thought, of opinion, of criticism."

The closing of the station will affect "more than 200 journalists, 3,000 workers and the entire Venezulean society," the station said in a statement posted on its Web site.

Last week, the U.S. Senate passed a resolution condemning the decision to shut down the station.

NOTE: we might be at brinks of a civilian war.. who knows, probably this will end peacefully i hope so

[duke_Qa]

i don't like the socialism that this guy is promoting, and i come from a pretty socialistic country. hopefully someone will put a needle in that populistic balloon-head and make the air go out of the entire thing, as it seems to be a cult of personality more than cause.

(yes, that prolly was a nice way to say get rid of the guy )

Edited by duke_Qa, 28 May 2007 - 10:04 PM.

[Hostile]

I think it was a pretty dangerous move by Hugo. Preaching your way is one thing, enforcing it it another. people tend to not like when they are instructed what to think.

[duke_Qa]

the curse of democracy, option A or option B, and majority dictatorship.

[Hostile]

The curse of communism, option A or option A?

How will I decide? It's so hard with so many options?

This is one of those moments where the population has to be left to decide how things will continue. Will they sit back and let democracy slip away. OR will they stand up and "fix" things?

http://edition.cnn.c...t.ap/index.html
http://www.foxnews.c...,275832,00.html

RCTV was regularly the top channel in viewer ratings, but Chavez accused the network of violating broadcast laws and "poisoning" Venezuelans with programming that promoted capitalism.

The government promises TVES will be more diverse, buying 70 percent of its content from independent Venezuelan producers. It will carry sports, news and an educational program for children emphasizing socialist values, as well as foreign-made programs such as National Geographic documentaries.

RCTV's shutdown leaves 24-hour Globovision news channel as the only other major opposition-sided station, and it is not seen in all parts of the country. Other channels once critical of Chavez have toned down their coverage.

Seems these two quotes from the same article contradict each other. There is a saying in the US, you can't legislate for taste. So where is the legislative process here? Where is thier parliment? What is an Executive leader doing making legislative decisions?

I don't see any legislative process like in other democracies. What I see is a dick-tator.

[Silent_Killa]

Where'd his revora fan club go?

[duke_Qa]

The curse of communism, option A or option A?

as you might have noticed, he got elected in a democratic vote, not chosen by a bunch of revolutionary communists. thus the foundation to call it a communistic rule is not there.

This is one of those moments where the population has to be left to decide how things will continue. Will they sit back and let democracy slip away. OR will they stand up and "fix" things?

that is the problem here, because there is a majority of poor people in this country that has gotten tired of the old regime and are showing their fingers to the upper class by voting for a guy that will make things more equal. naturally they ignore the fact that this guy might be sitting for a LOONG time, because they are seeing changes that they only could have dreamed of for ten years ago, but in the end they will probably find that things have gone too far, and what happens then depends on how early they notice.

the best case situation is that if there is a next election, the opposition will actually not boicott it as it did in 2005 so that they get some power in this system again. and hopefully they will manage to gather enough votes to usurp Chavez and get rid of him. naturally with the way things are going these days with closing down tv-stations and the likes that doesnt seem likely, but it would be a start.

[MaryJo]

Reports come from Caracas about multiple riots apparently caused by students enraged because of the decision of the government. Tear Gas and the "Whale" is being used against them. There are no classes in Caracas and things are getting more and more tense, as peaceful concentrations are also getting attacked by the police and the national guard.

On other news, Chavez on a national TV, has threatened Globovision because of an apparently new plan against him, ordering them to calm down, or they will be calmed down by him. Also he has called all of his followers to go to the streets of the city, and if a new A-13 is needed, it will be commanded by him.
in all honest i'm freaked out by this, because we are at a possible slaughter, the tension is too big this time...

[Tom]

Where'd his revora fan club go?

Probably realised that hes not different from any other power hungry politician, leader or group.

The constant arguement however that socialism/communism = dicatorship is bollacks. Every country essentially has a dictatorship of some form. Whether its dictatorship of the majority like in western countries or dicatorship of a single group of people as in case of the bolsheviks/nazis or dicatorship of a single person as in the case of Hugo.

Thing is from the history of these things, us as humans have still not learnt anything. All these situations have happened before in the past, they are still happening today and people still expect the outcome to be different. All unchecked power eventually leads to fascism. People need to become conscious of that fact and make it their personal responsibility to maintain their own communities and countries and make sure their governments or leaders are as accountable as the "average" person is.

[Hostile]

The curse of communism, option A or option A?

as you might have noticed, he got elected in a democratic vote, not chosen by a bunch of revolutionary communists. thus the foundation to call it a communistic rule is not there.

He might have gotten elected in a democratic vote, but he sure the hell isn't leaving by one.

Do you honestly think if he nationalised oil, and shut down a major TV network, that he wouldn't jail anyone who should oppose him in any future election? And how would this person get any media coverage? And his excuse was because they promoted capilialism and spoke out against him? How is any Presidential candidate supposed to run a campaign if they are not allowed to have a platform that is differant than Chavez?

The tv stations there didn't even broadcast the fact there were even riots. Don't you think that's major enough news for thier nations tv stations? Apparently Chavez doesn't think so.

And where is the legislative branch in all this? Where is the judical branch? IS there no national court to oppose the freedom of speech?

Since when is the President in control of the airwaves?

@Hybrid
This guy is not like any power hungry politician we are used to. He's making Executive orders to change the form of government. Where is the legislative branch? It's their job to make/change the laws, not his.

Yet I see no mention of that anywhere. He's a fucking dictator. End of sentence. And that is what happens when a communist is elected to lead a democratic nation.

Thing is from the history of these things, us as humans have still not learnt anything. All these situations have happened before in the past, they are still happening today and people still expect the outcome to be different.

And this is why I am here to post my strong opinions. Because it's the same situation I've seen before. You would like to compare the US and Venezuela as equally authoritarian? Saying one is no better than the other?

You better look again sir and correct your statement. Because I live here and I'm telling you, there isn't gonna be a dictator who shuts down CNN anytime soon. See that doesn't happen in my country. And I will not tolerate you saying that it could.

No one is gonna shut down BBC anytime soon are they? But they did shut down the equivalent of it in Venezuela!

Maryjo has made it perfectly clear, she actually fears what will happen.

This isn't BS, this comes from an actual person who lives there. So "usual suspects" don't deoderize, pasterize, santitize, homogenize, and sterlize what is happening. It is EXACTRLY what is appears to be. God bless Venezuela. I've been there, it's a beautiful country. I loved it there. I wish I could go back there to visit again.

I hope the people win and not a communist leader who "proposes to speak for the people"

This would be one of those things that makes me change my opinion on illigal immigration to the US. IF your alternative is to live under the forced servitude of communism, than bring us you're tired, you're weary, you're poor, you're down trodden, to the US.

And when you get here, welcome to the "fruited plain." Land of the free, home of the brave. And if the US is the last nation where you can say fuck the President, than I'm living in the correct nation based on my ideals of freedom of democracy. You won't get that from any communist nation.

[Silent_Killa]

Y'know... I've got to agree to a degree (rhymes ) that socialism/communism isn't what causes a dictatorship. What causes a dictatorship, really isn't that complicated, and that's consolidation of power. Now, the thing is though, that socialism/communism almost requires consolidation of power so long as it remains within the constraints of modern day conventional government. Now, you can get the same thing with capitalism really, it's just harder to do so because it's not a requirement that the power be consolidated, it's just a posibility that will in all eventuality take place.

Now, you start thinking direct democracy, anarchism etc and socialism works so long as the direct democracy/anarchism part works... which is less than likely in todays world. At the same time, capitalism works fine with direct democracy as well, though I doubt it would work right with anarchism. I think this is what you call rambling.

[Tom]

This guy is not like any power hungry politician we are used to. He's making Executive orders to change the form of government. Where is the legislative branch? It's their job to make/change the laws, not his.

And your government isn't doing the same? Making Executive decisions and changing the structure of your own government/republic, destroying the constitution and removing peoples inheited right to those freedoms. Its not different, just done in a different way.

And this is why I am here to post my strong opinions. Because it's the same situation I've seen before. You would like to compare the US and Venezuela as equally authoritarian? Saying one is no better than the other?

You better look again sir and correct your statement. Because I live here and I'm telling you, there isn't gonna be a dictator who shuts down CNN anytime soon. See that doesn't happen in my country. And I will not tolerate you saying that it could.

I've never said they would shut it down. There is no need to shut down media stations that are already doing the work for them or under their control anyway.

No one is gonna shut down BBC anytime soon are they? But they did shut down the equivalent of it in Venezuela!

No because the BBC is a load of bullshit and does what its told.

Maryjo has made it perfectly clear, she actually fears what will happen.

Its clear in every country that runs under such systems, its just some people can see it and other people refuse to see it.

And when you get here, welcome to the "fruited plain." Land of the free, home of the brave. And if the US is the last nation where you can say fuck the President, than I'm living in the correct nation based on my ideals of freedom of democracy. You won't get that from any communist nation.

You may be able to do that now but our countries are still heading down the same path. Only difference is its a group of organise induviduals doing it rather than a single man.

Now, you can get the same thing with capitalism really, it's just harder to do so because it's not a requirement that the power be consolidated, it's just a posibility that will in all eventuality take place.

If you can consolidate power economically in capitalism, the rest is easy.

[Ash]

Where'd his revora fan club go?

What, Kal? He hasn't been around recently.


While I obviously don't condone what Chavez did, I still take massive exception to Hostile's McCarthyist bullshit. I think a bit of Bush rubbed off on him. Perhaps they were in the same neonatal ward together.

[MaryJo]

More new come from different parts of the country as non-confirmed information about at least five or six students getting killed, in Caracas, Valencia and Maracaibo, if i can confirm this i'll keep you informed.
More and More protest keep going on this fourth day of protests because of the governments' decision of not renewing RCTV's license. The following material has been recorded by the students:

Riots in El Rosal (Caracas) May 29th: here

Riots in Universidad Central de Venezuela, protestants attacked by Followers of Chavez May 29th: Here

Riots in Universidad Simon Bolivar, students attacked by the Police May 28th: here here here
here

I'll be on the watch on the most recent news, as things are getting uglier by the minute and the tension all around Venezuela is bigger...

[DemonWolf]

Careful out there, MJ.

[Cheshire Fox]

Oh boy, fascism!

[Carnotaurus]

What? Chavez is not a fascist, dude. He's praised by Communists.

[CodeCat]

War is never a solution, but I can understand why it happens if some prick starts stomping on your basic rights.

[Hostile]

War is never a solution, but I can understand why it happens if some prick starts stomping on your basic rights.

Once again I agree with CC, twice in a day is a record for us. That is why the US has term limits for Presidents. So no matter how much one man can change things. At some point he is going out of office and someone new one will come in.

This prevents a dictatorship in the US. Because it's constitutionally guaranteed. And not one can change the constiturion of the US single handedly. Only a majority of the states ratify the change.

So the US has huge preventive measures that protect it from such things as dictators. Because if a President of the US decided he was gonna not "step down" the FBI would simply arrest him or forcibly move him down.

Same reason why the US military has no ability to arrest people in the US. They have no other abilites that any normal civilian has.

http://sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon5.html

The only things that keeps alot of people on nerves end, is the imfamous Executive Order. This clause seems to allow more power to the President than I feel comfortable with. But knowing the balance of power in the US, martial law can't be easily declared. Who would enforce it?

The US army wouldn't, nor the FBI. What would likely happen is a real quick impeachment to get the idiot out of office quick. While the political muck has it's disadvantages in the US, it certainly has it's strong points when one side decides to do something stupid.

These protectons don't seem to be in place in Venezuela. It appears they use the army to backup the police. In the US we use the National Guard. It's the army of the individual state. Because the US army is not allowed to operate in the US.

So each governor of each state has his own army to do those things. It seems like alot of layers, but it protects against such actions. The forefathers of the US had alot of insite to insulate and protect itself. I'm amazed on the protections they installed so long ago to foresee so many things that we couldn't in this modern day.