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Tolkien related matters in SEE mod


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#1 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 11:42 AM

I created this topic so we can keep all Tolkien discussions/related subjects in here, since these tend to take over threads quite fast... :p :p

The following is moved from Screen Shots thread after the first screens of Black Uruks of Barad-dûr in this mod...

///Naz


:)

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I suggest using the term 'Uruk-hai' (Orc people) as the plural instead of 'Uruks'. Even the Uruk-hai used 'We Are the Fighting Uruk-hai!' to describe themselves. :p

Denote allegiance along these lines: Black Orcs, Uruk-hai of Barad-dûr; Uruk-hai of the White Hand, Orthanc Uruk-hai, Sharkû's Ravagers (i know there is a Sharkû already, stupid 'translators' :(. Sharkû was the name that Saruman was known as among his somewhat simpleminded troops. Sharkû translated means something like 'old man'). ;)

Edited by Nazgûl, 12 June 2007 - 03:27 AM.

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#2 Nazgûl

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 11:46 AM

Hehe well that's where you are wrong... Only the Uruks of Isengard are Uruk-hai actually :p Those are the uruks that are mixed with blood of Men (I've done extensive research)

The uruks of Barad-dûr are not Uruk-hai...

Edited by Nazgûl, 30 May 2007 - 11:46 AM.

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#3 Mathijs

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 11:47 AM

...bred with Wargs..?

Care to give a Tolkien-quote for that?

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#4 Nazgûl

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 11:51 AM

Well certainly:
http://www.thelandof.../blackuruks.htm

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#5 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 12:07 PM

Oh well, i guess i need to recheck my LotR-books again, hehe. :p

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#6 Nazgûl

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 12:18 PM

Mee too, for sure... but until then I put my trust in that awesome site =)

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#7 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 12:25 PM

I only trust the site to produce a 'beautiful' and atmospheric 'render' of Tolkiens evil world. Accuracy i only entrust them Tolkien scholars. :p

But it's really good stuff there, yesyesyes!

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#8 Nazgûl

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 12:40 PM

I think they can be trusted without doubt :p
Check this: http://www.thelandof.../darkawards.htm

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#9 CapnAstroSponge

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 02:06 PM

Yeah, I think they've done their homework.
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Never come between a Capn and his..uh..AstroSponge? No, no...Never come between a CapnAstro and his Sponge! Uh.....this doesn't work as well as the other guys names..

I am..

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#10 Mathijs

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 03:03 PM

So have I...

and no official Tolkien source says anything about Black Uruks being bred with wargs involved. It doesn't sound very Tolkienish either... it's very obscure. I wouldn't trust that site at all about this.

Bard, zimoo, care to back me up or prove me wrong?

Edited by Matias, 30 May 2007 - 03:05 PM.

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#11 Dindi

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 03:05 PM

i looked at that site and some of the pictures for each creature where wrong, eg i looked at the smaug one and it showed pictures of glaurung, there wasnt that much infomation
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#12 Nazgûl

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 04:23 PM

Well twith all them awards, they're good enough for me... I'm not hard-core :p

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#13 Mathijs

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 04:36 PM

Sure, just don't add that stupid Warg-lore in your mod. It's false and you don't nééd it at all. :p

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#14 clonecommand

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 07:08 PM

Black uruks were bred by Sauron's magic. And as Tolkein was a Christian, I am sure he would not include that kindof stuff *cough*

#15 Nazgûl

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 09:23 PM

Uhm.. include what??

And since we're staying on that subject...

- Saruman bred the Uruk-hai by "mixing" with men (not sexually OFF COURSE lol), and I'm quite sure it was magic involved right?
- Sauron bred the Black Uruks - BUT... how? Magicallly yes... But if not mixed with Wargs that that big Tolkien fan site says, then how/with what?

Anyway, dont really matter, the mod wont state what they are, only what they are called :p

Edited by Nazgûl, 30 May 2007 - 09:27 PM.

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#16 zimoo

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 09:34 PM

Hmm yeah uruks were made by mixing them with wargs. I also heard high elves were made by mixing eagles with normal elves.
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#17 Mathijs

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 10:21 PM

Uhm.. include what??

And since we're staying on that subject...

- Saruman bred the Uruk-hai by "mixing" with men (not sexually OFF COURSE lol), and I'm quite sure it was magic involved right?
- Sauron bred the Black Uruks - BUT... how? Magicallly yes... But if not mixed with Wargs that that big Tolkien fan site says, then how/with what?

Anyway, dont really matter, the mod wont state what they are, only what they are called :p

First of all, Saruman didn't make the Uruk-hai. Apparantly he received some orcs and uruks from Mordor, and with that, he bred on till he created a better version, the Uruk-hai.

Second of all, Sauron didn't ''create'' anything. His orcs were descendants of those created by Morgoth, and he (or so the latest clues say) made the first of them by corrupting and torturing men. (this is always debated, though Thorongil's essay made alot of sense to me, and he is for that argument.) Nobody except Eru Iluvatar had the power to create. Morgoth could only corrupt and thus develop mockeries of the true creations.

And clonecommand, Tolkien was indeed a christian, but was very careful not to mix his christian beliefs into his work. He absolutely hated all forms of allegory and saw his work as something that wasn't connected to his religious beliefs. Read any biography and you'll see this confirmed.

That Tolkien site just makes no sense at all, looks like a bunch of fanboy gibberish to me.

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#18 zimoo

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 10:34 PM

More off-topic:

I wouldn't call Saruman's Uruks better than Sauron's personally. It may be because I haven't read the books in soooo long, but I don't remember anything similar to that. Maybe he had more of them (implied by the 'hai', translating to people), but I wouldn't say they were stronger.

As for the orc issue, Tolkien's last thought was that they were men. There is nothing in any book to say they are elves, just random thoughts by some characters. To quote (well not quote, but give the jist of a quote) Tolkien:

Treebeard is just a character, not me. He does not know everything about the world.


Posted to counter the obvious "But Treebeard said they were elves" argument :p
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#19 Mathijs

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 10:44 PM

I personally think the -hai part means that they resemble men more, being tall and straight-legged.

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#20 zimoo

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 10:53 PM

Fair enough, the text does allow for different opinions and interpretations, although I've personally always understood the 'hai' to translate directly to 'people'.

But are there any differences actually noted between the uruks of Mordor and Isengard? I don't consider a simple addition of 'hai' to be evidence for difference between the two, nor do I remember that name being specifically used for Saruman's uruks.

Maybe this is my book-rustyness acting again. I need to pick up the books and read them again soon ;)

BTW, sorry for the thread hi-jacking Naz :p

Back on topic (ever so slightly), I really wish all these fansites would atleast come up with feasible stories, that atleast fit in with the lore, rather than the sort of thing discussed in this thread.

Edited by zimoo, 30 May 2007 - 10:54 PM.

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