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Tolkien related matters in SEE mod


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#21 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 30 May 2007 - 11:25 PM

'-hai' most certainly denotes 'people'. It would have nothing to do with being more manlike. Mordor's Fighting Trolls are not arbitrarily called 'Olog-hai'. But i believe that a) Tolkien wasn't always consistent using names and b) the characters living in Middle-earth most certainly weren't, as zimoo pointed out; Omniscience was surely restricted to Eru alone, if at all. ;)

When it comes to the game, i wouldn't limit the ending '-hai' to Isengard. Also i believe Uruk is just the word for Orc in their own tongue. Only the strong were awarded this, maybe like a rite of passage label, being only a full 'Orc' once they had proven themselves to be superior. The weak were simply called 'Snaga'. :p

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Note: please move my previous post to the other ones. I think the move and my post were happening just at the same time, hehe. ;)

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#22 Servant of Sauron

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 12:05 AM

This is off topic slightly but does this mean that all Isengard Uruks will be having hai at the end of their names now? ie. Uruk-hai Berserkers, Uruk-hai Swordsmen etc.

The old world will burn in the fires of industry! The forests will fall! A new order will rise...we will drive the machine of war with the sword and the spear and the iron fist of the Orc! We have only to remove those who oppose us...


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#23 Nazgûl

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 12:08 AM

That's where I am right now yes... but since we can't agree on things I might call them Pink Panthers instead... lol :p

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#24 clonecommand

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 02:12 AM

The third most deadly creatures of Mordor....the PINK PANTHERS! ahhhhh :p

I thought it was clear a while back that Black Uruks were not the same as Uruk-hai, as Uruk-hai (I blieve) were bred by Saruman...that's not true.

But Uruk-hai can't take on 10 miny orcs and win. Yet the black uruks can, so...I don't think Sauron would trust himself to the Uruk-hai.

#25 zimoo

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:44 AM

Erm...care to back up your claim of uruks beating lesser orcs 10-on-1 with a quote? :ninja:
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#26 Mathijs

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:46 AM

I was about to ask that.

No fuel left for the pilgrims


#27 Uruk King

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:06 AM

You know there's been a lot of disscussionof adding shagrat into the mod as a sorto f early-lategame hero for Mordor. Why don't we start thinking up some abilities for him.

*lvl 1) Uruk Bash (heavy attack, knocks back enemies)
*lvl 3) Leadership (50% damage 50% armor to Black Uruks)
*lvl 5) Cheif of Cirith Ungol (armour increase when fighting near Mordor structures)
*lvl 7) Summon Black uruks (Summons two permanant hordes of Black uruks)
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#28 Mathijs

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:09 AM

The level 7 power would be too overpowering, seeing as how strong Nazgul has made the black uruks.

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#29 m@tt

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:19 AM

He could summon a couple of individual Black Uruks instead
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#30 Nazgûl

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 12:12 PM

Yeah that last one could work. 2 battallions would be way too much =)

And oh yeah... Zimoo, Mathias and all other Tolkien experts... I must ask this too:
- According to most sources Shagrat was the commander of the Black Uruks, and the Black Uruks was supposedly from Barad-dûr where they were the last line of defence for Sauron (in case of unexpected emergency), but also supposedly they was a legion used for attack on important targets... I'm sure this can be discussed endlessly.. BUT - the important question is this - if Shagrat was captain of Barad-dûr, how come he's often refered to as being stationed at Cirith Ungol?

Edited by Nazgûl, 31 May 2007 - 12:35 PM.

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#31 Uruk King

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:53 PM

I can answer the latter question. He was captain of barad dur indeed. But when he recieved word from Cirith Ungol that elvish spies might be on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol. He led a company of about 40 Orcs to investigate. The met another company of over 80 Orcs led by Gorbag from Minas Morgul. And about the level seven power, instead of summoning Black uruks, He comes with an escort of 4 permanant Uruk warriors, that can be respawned from him if they die.

Nazgul, if you wish to do ant fruther research use this link:
Thain's Book

Edited by Uruk King, 31 May 2007 - 01:57 PM.

I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#32 zimoo

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:14 PM

Anyone else think this is weird? First we were filling up a mod-related topic with off-topic lore discussions, then when it gets turned into a lore discussion topic we start talking about the mod O_o
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#33 Nazgûl

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 07:06 PM

lol, well primarily I didn't want to have too much lore discussions in the Screen SHots thread, so here we can concentrate on the Black Uruks, both in lore form and mod... :ninja:

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#34 clonecommand

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:03 PM

Btw, I brought up Tolkein's Christian side 'cause I thought the warg stuff meant...sexual....I didn't think about throwing a warg in a boiling cauldron :p

#35 Mathijs

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:36 PM

Yes.

But Tolkien didn't apply his christian morals to his work.

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#36 Nazgûl

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:22 PM

Like I said before... (not that I'm a Tolkien expert but) I don't think that any evil races have females really, so I don't think there would be any sexual activity amongst Orcs, Uruks, or any other evil beast. I suppose they're all created using black magic.

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#37 zimoo

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:50 PM

"Bred after the manner of all the Children of Iluvatar"

Or something similar, can't be bothered to leave my chair atm. They breed in the same way as elves and men, which we don't know for certain, but can assume that it's the same as the way we humans reproduce :p

*Tries to get image of orc sex out of his mind*
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#38 GothmogtheOrc

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 11:26 PM

I can answer the latter question. He was captain of barad dur indeed. But when he recieved word from Cirith Ungol that elvish spies might be on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol. He led a company of about 40 Orcs to investigate. The met another company of over 80 Orcs led by Gorbag from Minas Morgul. And about the level seven power, instead of summoning Black uruks, He comes with an escort of 4 permanant Uruk warriors, that can be respawned from him if they die.

Nazgul, if you wish to do ant fruther research use this link:
Thain's Book


No, shagrat was most certainly not the captain of Barad-dur. Even on that link you provided it says captain of Citrith Ungol.

Also, I don't think it says that the black uruks were reserved for anything special. They were certainly better then the smaller orcs but they were used in many different roles. In the book one of them is with a small hunter orc searching for frodo and sam right after they escape Citrith Ungol and as I recall there was nothing special about him, he just happened to be posted nearby and was sent to search, he wasn't an elite hunter or any other elite status. Stronger, yes, faster, yes.

My 2 cents.

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#39 Nazgûl

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:30 AM

Hi Gothie... nice to see u here :p

Hm, this is getting frustrating though... :s
U see... before I left the RETARDED EA forums (cause of all the idiots in there) :p I was BOMBARDED with requests about adding Black Uruks of Barad-dûr in this mod... and they ALL stated (like on that fav site of mine) that those were the "original" Uruks from which Saruman bred a new "race" mixed with men. The Black Uruks was (as said before) supposedly mixed with Wargs (and I prefer to think of it as non sexual thanks, lol)... after all, they sprung from pits in the ground in the movie, and this is a movie mod first and foremost :)

Anyway... all state that the Mordor Uruks... the "Black Uruks" was stronger and better than Saruman's Uruk-hai's. I know this could probably de debated endlessly with different interpretations of Tolkiens world, but I think I must, much like Peter Jackson, take the liberty of "directing" some details of my own... and I kinda like the idea of an older race of uruks that are, in this way, slightly better then even the strongest Uruk-hai - and yes that means I will differ Uruk-hai from Uruks... Just to sort of make a stand so we can move on. Some will like it, some will not ;)

Shagrat will be their leader, regardless of weather he was a captain of Barad-dûr or Cirith Ungul (I've read both ideas several times, lol). I also think if I'm not wrong that Shagrat was an Uruk only in the movie? In the book he was an orc? But like I said... I must decide on something... and this will most certainly be the way I keep it.

Edited by Nazgûl, 01 June 2007 - 12:32 AM.

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#40 Uruk King

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 06:31 AM

ye Shagrat was un Uruk, and so was Gorbag, but Jackson decided to portray him as a common orc.
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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