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Tolkien related matters in SEE mod


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#41 Mathijs

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:25 AM

Damnit Nâzgul, stop thinking their heritage has something to do with wargs. It just doesn't, nothing in the movies nor in the books even remotely hints to that. :p

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#42 Nazgûl

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:45 PM

In the end it's MY mod so I guess I have the final word regardless of Tolkien true or not ;) mooooaaah :p

But seriously, instead of arguing against (only) could you give your own theory of what the BU came from (what/who created them) and in what way they differ from Saruman's Uruk-hai (if any)? That would be more interesting to read than simply "You are wrong". I think Tolkien left a lot of issues to be interpreted by the reader her/himself, right? Plus he also contradicted himself a few times...

1) This is a movie mod...
2) BUs are not in the movie...
3) BUs are not that well described in the books...
= pretty much left open for own ideas I guess :)

PS, I thought Zimoo backed me up back there, but I guess he was being ironic, cmoparing with Eagles/Elves and all ;p

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#43 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:49 PM

:) I guess it will become good. No reason to argue. :p

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#44 Mathijs

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 01:17 PM

In the end it's MY mod so I guess I have the final word regardless of Tolkien true or not :p mooooaaah :p

But seriously, instead of arguing against (only) could you give your own theory of what the BU came from (what/who created them) and in what way they differ from Saruman's Uruk-hai (if any)? That would be more interesting to read than simply "You are wrong". I think Tolkien left a lot of issues to be interpreted by the reader her/himself, right? Plus he also contradicted himself a few times...

1) This is a movie mod...
2) BUs are not in the movie...
3) BUs are not that well described in the books...
= pretty much left open for own ideas I guess :)

PS, I thought Zimoo backed me up back there, but I guess he was being ironic, cmoparing with Eagles/Elves and all ;p

Okay, sure... and it's very tiresome to argue against something as rediculous are crossbreeding wargs to get black uruks. ;)

Black uruks probably came to be by breeding the strongest and biggest orcs, and only allow their strongest descendants to mate. This way you will end up with a superior race of Orcs, eventually.

Black uruks áre in the movie. They are the ones who start fighting when Gorbag is kicked through the gap at Cirith Ungol, when Shagrat screams ''the maggot tried to knife me!''. They seem to wear some kind of hoods. You can clearly see that the battle is orcs versus black uruks. Also, if you play the RotK EA game, you will be fighting alot of black uruks and orcs at Cirith Ungol, who also fight against each other. EA properly based them off the ones in the movie.

I think that Saruman's uruk-hai are either similar to the black uruks, or more powerful. If Saruman used the same manner of breeding as Sauron did, (allowing only the strongest of orcs to mate, their strongest descendants etc) he probably ended up with something similar to what Sauron ended up with. If however, Saruman received some black uruks from Mordor as well, his uruk-hai will be stronger, since he bred the strongest of the black uruks.

My 2 cents.

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#45 Nazgûl

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:10 PM

Aaah yes, I stand corrected... now that you mention it, I do remember that scene more carefully. They were in the bottom of the tower where Gorbag fell. true! And I like their look, very much, even though I think they are too similar to the Isengard uruks...

But... where are the females? In the books, and in the movies?

And what are those slimy pits from which the Uruk-hai appear, like the scene with Lurtz? You're saying Lurtz has a father and mother? And that he wasn't "born" from a pit in the ground using scorcery? He and all other uruks and orcs were bred "nomally" with males and females? Is that what you are saying? :s

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#46 m@tt

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:22 PM

I thought they were being tortured in those things.
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#47 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:52 PM

The slimy pit was a P.J. invention.

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#48 Mathijs

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:52 PM

Indeed it was.

About men being tortured into orcs, they were, that's how they originated in the First Age. I suppose their genetic code was altered and their descendants turned out as orcs too, short, round-legged and scared of sunlight. Morgoth couldn't create, but he could corrupt and destroy. That's the best scientific explanation I can give you. :p It is clear though that orcs were no longer tortured humans after the First Age, because that would mean that for every orc there has to be a human captured. Physically impossible.

And Nazgul, I'm not saying that... I don't know how orcs reproduced at all, fact is, they reproduce. All I know is that Saruman and Sauron did not have the power to create them, they couldn't use ''magic'' to create them in the soil. The only one who could create life was Eru Iluvatar. Orcs aren't plants. (:thumbsupsmiley:) Gandalf tells Frodo about Sauron that ''his orcs have multiplied.'' No idea how, maybe they were like frogs. :thumbsupsmiley:

What I posted about the creation of uruks is all just my theory, but it's alot more likely and valid then what that Mordor-site tells you. :xcahik_:

Edited by Matias, 01 June 2007 - 02:53 PM.

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#49 Gherrick

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:20 PM

Black Uruks in films and books were noobs. They died all vs Gorbag's orcs same as orcs. Only Shagrat and Snaga survived.... :I You made them too strong I think.
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#50 Uruk King

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:27 PM

They were outneumbered 2 to 1 against Morgul Orcs, the cream of the crop of Mordor's infantry, next to the black uruks, but bare in mid not all of Shagrat's forces were Black uruks, some if not most were common orcs. But stengthwise they're perfect.
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#51 Gherrick

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:31 PM

Orly? Where they were outnumbered? Where's the evidence?
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#52 Mathijs

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:03 AM

They were outneumbered 2 to 1 against Morgul Orcs, the cream of the crop of Mordor's infantry, next to the black uruks, but bare in mid not all of Shagrat's forces were Black uruks, some if not most were common orcs. But stengthwise they're perfect.

Who says Morgul orcs are the ''cream of the crop''? If you ask me, they were just orcs that happened to live in Minal Morgul and the surrounding fields.

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#53 Nazgûl

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:12 AM

That's why the Morgul Orcs in SEE is not stronger, olny better equipped :p

About the Black Uruks...
Peronally I rather have the Uruk-hai of Isengard be the best Uruks in the game, like I had from the beginning. But it was the folks at EA forums that talked me into the fact that the Black Uruks was some kind of "original" ancient Uruk that came long before Saruman's, and that they were bigger, stonger and better. But I have NO problem with changing that back again, so they will "only" be better than Orcs, but comparable to regular Uruks... but having Sarumans "elite" (Uruks of the White Hand/Uruks of Orthanc) be the strongest uruk unit intead.

Would that be better? :thumbsupsmiley:

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#54 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:19 AM

I think so. Mordor was all about large contingents. Numbers so big it just doesn't matter if 3/4 die cause what's left is still a massive army.

Isengard was not fully tuned to this strategy. And i imagine Saruman would want to have an army that would be better in some regard, if not in numbers. :p

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#55 Servant of Sauron

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 03:48 AM

Morgul Orcs were constantly raiding Gondor at the Witch-King's command and so became, over time, hardier than standard Orcs of Gorgoroth. Also, they recieved better training, weapons and armour than their cousins from the plateau and so were more disciplined and better equipped.

As for the Black Uruks just leave them as they are, lore wise Sauron is the stronger maia and so it makes sense that he'd have the more uber bodyguard.

Strangely Tolkien refers to Saruman's elite soldiers as Uruk-hai and Sauron's as Uruks and never really says which was better than the other or if they were very similar in strength. He does say that the Uruks of Mordor had longer arms and strange proportions whereas the Uruk-hai of Isengard had propoertions more like those of a man.

It also should be noted that IIRC the term is used interchangably several times throughout the book.

Also, a force of Uruks from Mordor marched from said country and burned Ithilien, are these the same as Black Uruks? I don't know. Is it possible that Sauron had some form of Uruk-hai (ie.Orcs "bred" with men)as well as the Black Uruks that formed his bodyguard, or are the Black Uruks simply the most powerful Uruks of Mordor, of the same race as the ones who attacked Ithilien?

Perhaps zimoo can clear it up? *looks hopefully in zimoo's direction*

Edited by Servant of Sauron, 02 June 2007 - 03:54 AM.

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#56 Gherrick

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 07:23 AM

That's wise from your side :blush: Good you won't overpower BU or MO.
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#57 zimoo

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 09:53 AM

Personally, I'd say Mordor's Uruks were stronger, simply because necessity would require it. Gondorians are better than Rohirrim in every aspect of war IMO (only area they are beaten is in cavalry numbers).

Just my opinion, now cue the Rohan fanboys telling me that 'Gondor would have fallen if it wasn't for Rohan' and all that crap :blush:
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#58 Mathijs

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:41 AM

Well, Gondorians were indeed stronger then the men of Rohan. They came from a nobler lineage, wiser and more developed. Most had some Numenorean blood still in their veins. Rohirrim however were descendants of the northmen. Tolkien had 3 types of men in his mind, Men of the Sun, Men of the twilight and men of darkness. Gondorians were men of the sun, rohirrim and other northmen were men of twilight and southrons and easterlings were men of shadow. Not sure if this concept lasted till his last revisions, but he did use this concept for a while.

As for the Rohirrim's value in the battle of the Pelennor... I'd say Gondor would've defeated the host at the Pelennor eventually without Rohan, but the White City would've been far more ravaged then it was with the Rohirrim, and the battle of the Morannon wouldn't have been an option, meaning Frodo would have had a MUCH harder time destroying the Ring.

Edited by Matias, 02 June 2007 - 11:43 AM.

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#59 m@tt

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:53 AM

Going by the movie, Gondor was back to the second level and would not have won IMO. Although eventually they would get out of range of the catapults, the trolls were tearing through city and the mumakil could have destroyed the walls possibly.
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#60 Mathijs

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:56 AM

Aye, though I believe that Aragorn and his army (not the AotD, I'm talking about the books here) could've still done huge damage to the Mordor army, maybe wipe them out together with the soldiers still stationed in Minas Tirith. Remember, the orcs would've been attacked from two sides. Gandalf would've been able to destroy the Witch-king. (in the books).

When talking about the movie, they would've won easily without Rohan. AotD would've just wiped everything out.

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