Tolkien related matters in SEE mod
#41
Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:25 AM
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#42
Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:45 PM
But seriously, instead of arguing against (only) could you give your own theory of what the BU came from (what/who created them) and in what way they differ from Saruman's Uruk-hai (if any)? That would be more interesting to read than simply "You are wrong". I think Tolkien left a lot of issues to be interpreted by the reader her/himself, right? Plus he also contradicted himself a few times...
1) This is a movie mod...
2) BUs are not in the movie...
3) BUs are not that well described in the books...
= pretty much left open for own ideas I guess
PS, I thought Zimoo backed me up back there, but I guess he was being ironic, cmoparing with Eagles/Elves and all ;p
// C}{riZ
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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#43
Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:49 PM
Axed Head and A.I. Coder for S.E.E. and ... stuff
".. coding is basically boring. What's fun is finding out how things work, take them apart and then put them together in ways that were not intended nor even conceived."
#44
Posted 01 June 2007 - 01:17 PM
Okay, sure... and it's very tiresome to argue against something as rediculous are crossbreeding wargs to get black uruks.In the end it's MY mod so I guess I have the final word regardless of Tolkien true or not mooooaaah
But seriously, instead of arguing against (only) could you give your own theory of what the BU came from (what/who created them) and in what way they differ from Saruman's Uruk-hai (if any)? That would be more interesting to read than simply "You are wrong". I think Tolkien left a lot of issues to be interpreted by the reader her/himself, right? Plus he also contradicted himself a few times...
1) This is a movie mod...
2) BUs are not in the movie...
3) BUs are not that well described in the books...
= pretty much left open for own ideas I guess
PS, I thought Zimoo backed me up back there, but I guess he was being ironic, cmoparing with Eagles/Elves and all ;p
Black uruks probably came to be by breeding the strongest and biggest orcs, and only allow their strongest descendants to mate. This way you will end up with a superior race of Orcs, eventually.
Black uruks áre in the movie. They are the ones who start fighting when Gorbag is kicked through the gap at Cirith Ungol, when Shagrat screams ''the maggot tried to knife me!''. They seem to wear some kind of hoods. You can clearly see that the battle is orcs versus black uruks. Also, if you play the RotK EA game, you will be fighting alot of black uruks and orcs at Cirith Ungol, who also fight against each other. EA properly based them off the ones in the movie.
I think that Saruman's uruk-hai are either similar to the black uruks, or more powerful. If Saruman used the same manner of breeding as Sauron did, (allowing only the strongest of orcs to mate, their strongest descendants etc) he probably ended up with something similar to what Sauron ended up with. If however, Saruman received some black uruks from Mordor as well, his uruk-hai will be stronger, since he bred the strongest of the black uruks.
My 2 cents.
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#45
Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:10 PM
But... where are the females? In the books, and in the movies?
And what are those slimy pits from which the Uruk-hai appear, like the scene with Lurtz? You're saying Lurtz has a father and mother? And that he wasn't "born" from a pit in the ground using scorcery? He and all other uruks and orcs were bred "nomally" with males and females? Is that what you are saying? :s
// C}{riZ
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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#47
Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:52 PM
Axed Head and A.I. Coder for S.E.E. and ... stuff
".. coding is basically boring. What's fun is finding out how things work, take them apart and then put them together in ways that were not intended nor even conceived."
#48
Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:52 PM
About men being tortured into orcs, they were, that's how they originated in the First Age. I suppose their genetic code was altered and their descendants turned out as orcs too, short, round-legged and scared of sunlight. Morgoth couldn't create, but he could corrupt and destroy. That's the best scientific explanation I can give you. It is clear though that orcs were no longer tortured humans after the First Age, because that would mean that for every orc there has to be a human captured. Physically impossible.
And Nazgul, I'm not saying that... I don't know how orcs reproduced at all, fact is, they reproduce. All I know is that Saruman and Sauron did not have the power to create them, they couldn't use ''magic'' to create them in the soil. The only one who could create life was Eru Iluvatar. Orcs aren't plants. () Gandalf tells Frodo about Sauron that ''his orcs have multiplied.'' No idea how, maybe they were like frogs.
What I posted about the creation of uruks is all just my theory, but it's alot more likely and valid then what that Mordor-site tells you.
Edited by Matias, 01 June 2007 - 02:53 PM.
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#50
Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:27 PM
#52
Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:03 AM
Who says Morgul orcs are the ''cream of the crop''? If you ask me, they were just orcs that happened to live in Minal Morgul and the surrounding fields.They were outneumbered 2 to 1 against Morgul Orcs, the cream of the crop of Mordor's infantry, next to the black uruks, but bare in mid not all of Shagrat's forces were Black uruks, some if not most were common orcs. But stengthwise they're perfect.
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#53
Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:12 AM
About the Black Uruks...
Peronally I rather have the Uruk-hai of Isengard be the best Uruks in the game, like I had from the beginning. But it was the folks at EA forums that talked me into the fact that the Black Uruks was some kind of "original" ancient Uruk that came long before Saruman's, and that they were bigger, stonger and better. But I have NO problem with changing that back again, so they will "only" be better than Orcs, but comparable to regular Uruks... but having Sarumans "elite" (Uruks of the White Hand/Uruks of Orthanc) be the strongest uruk unit intead.
Would that be better?
// C}{riZ
"Do not come between the Nazgûl and his mod!"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I S.E.E. YOU! <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#54
Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:19 AM
Isengard was not fully tuned to this strategy. And i imagine Saruman would want to have an army that would be better in some regard, if not in numbers.
Axed Head and A.I. Coder for S.E.E. and ... stuff
".. coding is basically boring. What's fun is finding out how things work, take them apart and then put them together in ways that were not intended nor even conceived."
#55
Posted 02 June 2007 - 03:48 AM
As for the Black Uruks just leave them as they are, lore wise Sauron is the stronger maia and so it makes sense that he'd have the more uber bodyguard.
Strangely Tolkien refers to Saruman's elite soldiers as Uruk-hai and Sauron's as Uruks and never really says which was better than the other or if they were very similar in strength. He does say that the Uruks of Mordor had longer arms and strange proportions whereas the Uruk-hai of Isengard had propoertions more like those of a man.
It also should be noted that IIRC the term is used interchangably several times throughout the book.
Also, a force of Uruks from Mordor marched from said country and burned Ithilien, are these the same as Black Uruks? I don't know. Is it possible that Sauron had some form of Uruk-hai (ie.Orcs "bred" with men)as well as the Black Uruks that formed his bodyguard, or are the Black Uruks simply the most powerful Uruks of Mordor, of the same race as the ones who attacked Ithilien?
Perhaps zimoo can clear it up? *looks hopefully in zimoo's direction*
Edited by Servant of Sauron, 02 June 2007 - 03:54 AM.
The old world will burn in the fires of industry! The forests will fall! A new order will rise...we will drive the machine of war with the sword and the spear and the iron fist of the Orc! We have only to remove those who oppose us...
#57
Posted 02 June 2007 - 09:53 AM
Just my opinion, now cue the Rohan fanboys telling me that 'Gondor would have fallen if it wasn't for Rohan' and all that crap
#58
Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:41 AM
As for the Rohirrim's value in the battle of the Pelennor... I'd say Gondor would've defeated the host at the Pelennor eventually without Rohan, but the White City would've been far more ravaged then it was with the Rohirrim, and the battle of the Morannon wouldn't have been an option, meaning Frodo would have had a MUCH harder time destroying the Ring.
Edited by Matias, 02 June 2007 - 11:43 AM.
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#60
Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:56 AM
When talking about the movie, they would've won easily without Rohan. AotD would've just wiped everything out.
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