318 replies to this topic

[Sûlherokhh]

I think what zimoo was hinting at was troop quality (training, equipment, tactics, discipline). Sure, Rohirrim are practically living on their horses. But they didn't have the same kind of battle experience. Gondor was almost constantly at war. As a purist, the Gondor Knights should probably be stronger than Rohirrim, yet less flexible or fast. Checking their armor (even moviewise) they should also be able to withstand more damage. Rohirrim should have less health/damage resistance but be faster and have a shorter turn radius, lending themselves much better to hit and run skirmish tactics, which is practically all they were really trained for.

Edit: Gondor Troops/Knights (try to win by killing the opposition) vs. Rohirrim (try to survive the enemy by not being where the hits are landing).

Edited by Sulherokhh, 02 June 2007 - 12:01 PM.

[Gherrick]

Nah...going bookwise Minas Tirith would be destroyed before Aragorn could go with his army. They concentrated on new enemy not on pillaging the city.

[zimoo]

Yeah I agree that the Morannon wouldn't have been possible (or atleast been alot more suicidal) without the Rohirrim, but many people seem to think Minas Tirith would have been lost if it weren't for the Rohirrim. The way I see it, is that if they hadn't showed up there'd still be no enemy getting into MT, with Gandalf and KoDA guarding the gate and the Wiki having been pwned

Yeah I agree with you there Sul about the cavalries strengths. Gondor would be more along the lines of heavy cavalry able to hold their own in sustained combat, whereas the Rohirrim would be flanking and making quick charges etc. In a fight between the two sides, with even numbers, I'd put my money on the Gondorians.

Lol, walls of Minas Tirith being destroyed . It took a huge battering ram enhanced by numerous spells to break the gate, the weakest part of the defences

To send the Mumakil to attack the walls would mean their defeat IMO, sort of like the ents trying to break down Orthanc. No matter how strong they are they're just going to wear themselves out and inflict injuries upon themselves.

Gherick, in the books the only enemy to enter the city was the Witch-King, who got a few paces. If the Rohirrim hadn't come, are you honestly saying that Witch-King would have beaten Gandalf? Everyone who knows anything about Tolkien's lore thinks Gandalf would win, then what? Are the orcs going to go head on against the maia who defeated their chieftain? Or are they going to turn and run, like they always do at the first sign of trouble? This would lead the evil men to sack Minas Tirith alone. With the Witch-King dead the Gondorians morale would be higher, archers returning to the wall, infantry returning to the gate, how do you think Minas Tirith would fall?

Edited by zimoo, 02 June 2007 - 12:17 PM.

[Mathijs]

Indeed. The walls of Minas Tirith are made of the same (or very similar) material as Orthanc. They would not have been broken.

Gandalf was holding the gate with Imrahil and his knights, the most elite soldiers around at that moment. Gandalf commanded the Witch-king to leave the gate, and I think that if he had returned, they would've fought and Gandalf would've definately won. Gandalf is a very powerful maia, the Witch-king is nothing more then a man corrupted and strenghtened by a ring. No Man can defeat him, sure, but Gandalf was not part of the race of Men. I highly doubt that orcs would've been able to take over the city with Gandalf and Gondor's elite holding the gates. As zimoo pointed out, orcs are nothing without their leaders, and if the Witch-king had faced Gandalf, he would've been defeated and the orcs would've lost their leader.

''He has nine, but we one, stronger then they.''

Edited by Matias, 02 June 2007 - 12:24 PM.

[m@tt]

OK, the walls bit was stupid, but (depending on how high the walls were) they could have destroyed any first level trebuchet and knock units down with their tusks.

With the nazgul able to destroy all trebuchet, the gondor army would have struggled to kill much of army.

[Sûlherokhh]

I also believe the WK would not be stupid about this. And he would know his masters wishes. So in all probability he would have withdrawn his forces and continued the siege. With the AodD having done their duty they were out of the picture anyways (according to the books, they didn't make it to MT, their job being done by defeating the piratefleet coming from Pelargir).

The Rohirrim helped in a way that MT could not muster the strength to do, flank and disperse the enemy. Otherwise we'd have had a lengthy siege. In all probability, Sauron would have sent quite a few troops to reinforce the WK. He still had all of the Gorgoroth army.

[Gherrick]

But I'm not saying about puny orcs but large evil forces coming. And I don't think still Gondorians with Gate opened could withstand that attack. And I don't say that Gandalf> Witchking just that, Witchking could not die...he would be defeated and escape and than Haradrim, Rhunies, Trolls, Orcs and all this big army would defeat Gandalf and Imrahil and their forces sooner or later.

[Mathijs]

The Witch-king could die. According to prophecy, he couldn't die by the hands of men, this can be taken as gender or as race. Gandalf was not of the race of Men, and he could have killed the Witch-king. Without the Witch-king, I doubt the orcs would even dare to attack the gate, seeing as the ''demon'' defending it just destroyed their all-powerful general.

[CapnAstroSponge]

True, true, all true.
Jeez, this is getting confusing, at least, for someone who didn't study the books(like me). I think that, if I were an Orc and had just learned the Witch-King had died, I woulda high-tailed it out of there.
If that helps any in whatever we're arguing about.

Edited by CapnAstroSponge, 02 June 2007 - 04:58 PM.

[Nazgûl]

Even though we are slipping from the subject of Black Uruks vs Uruk-hai in terms of strenght and origin AND how to set them up for this mod, I must say I enjoy reding this thread loaded with experienced Tolkien readers

I'd like more comments on weather Black Uruks (Mordor) or Uruk-hai (Isengard) should be the strongest unit...
What if I make the Black Uruks strenght wise still stronger then fully upgraded Uruk-hai but leave Saruman's "Uruk-hai of Orthanc/ Uruk-hai of the White Hand" (haven't decided on that name yet, the former Uruk Elite) the strongest of all Uruks? In other words, place BU right between upgraded Uruk-hai and the Elite? OR do most of you think that they are fine like this - the absolute cream of the crop in terms of uruks?


I must also say that I was a bit surprised on how "weak" gandalf was portraid in the movies... not just the scene with the WitchKing, who indeed is "only" a former man enslaved by the power of Saurons ring. But also how hard he had to fight the puny goblins in the Mines of Moria, and similar occasions. He did beat the Balrog, but seeing how he's apowerful Maia, next in line from Saruman, Gandalf should be able to "waporize" insignificant creatures like Orcs without hardly lifting a finger, right?

But now this is not the way he's portraid in the movie, when the WK for instance simply "blew" Gandies staff to pieces... so even though questionable Tolkien lore wise, that "idea" is still what I'm going for... a really strong WK, and that is why he's 7000, Saruman is 6000 and Gandalf 5000. ANd also, if I would make the Maiars as strong as they probably would be, it would even exceed the books and it wouldnt fit for a game cause they would just wipe everything out

[Sûlherokhh]

Good choice. The Maiar are also not simply powerful. Their perception and their power is constrained by the physical form that they chose to 'wear' in middle-earth. A lot of their power cannot be channeled through that shape, and it is needed to even interact with the physical world. I don't know if you remember the scene in the book where the Nazgûl's shape was disintegrated by the rising flood before Rivendell. In the book it is said that they had to limp back slowly to Sauron before given back the necessary 'tools' (read: special horse/beast, 'magical' clothes/armor etc.) to interact with the world. The Maiar's 'tools' are his own (selfcreated) 'body'.

So, there are limits. And Gandalf was wise enough not to test those limits. Sauron used up his own (sinking of Nûmenor) and therefore his interaction with the world was limited to using others to do his bidding.

[Mathijs]

I like that compromise about the strength of the black uruks Nâzgul.

And I agree that Gandalf was portrayed a tad weak even outside of the Witch-king fight, but in the books he couldn't ''vaporise'' puny orcs either. His strength was in his words, his confidence, his race and his Ring of Fire.

And yeah, if Gandalf was allowed to demonstrate his full power in Middle-earth, Sauron wouldn't have stood a single chance. Gandalf's role and purpose however was to rally the free peoples of Middle-earth against Sauron, to inspire courage into the hearts of them.

Edited by Matias, 02 June 2007 - 05:14 PM.

[zimoo]

Like you said yourself:

His strength was in his words, his confidence, his race and his Ring of Fire.

Sauron was more powerful, but Gandalf was wiser. I fail to see how Sauron wouldn't stand a chance if Gandalf had his full power.

[Nazgûl]

I feel like a little kid in school sitting with giant staring eyes on the teacher, listening to really interesting lessons

Well, the thing is even though this is "my mod" and all that, when it comes to things that are not in the movie, I'd like to have them in line with the lore of the books, if possible, so I really need guys like Zimoo, Matias and Servant of Sauron - I highly appreciate your commitment to guide me/us, and you too Sûl. You know more about the books than I do, for sure. The 4 of you and everyone else that fills in is really helpful to get this mod to play in a way that will not ONLY appeal to me

>>> I think we have decided on the Black Uruks then... I will debuff them, but only slightly. The "Uruk-hai of the White Hand/Orthanc" will be the nr1 Uruk unit, much like I wanted it from the beginning, plus I just love the models (that Cahik put together for RealityMod) Lauri is probably gonna polish their anims as well...

>>> What about the Morgul Orcs then? Same question... Stay like this, or slightly buffed?


Thanks guys... I will follow all further Tolkien matters with great interest in this thred

[zimoo]

The only difference between them is where they dwell. Personally, I like the concept of them being identical but able to receive upgrades.

[Sûlherokhh]

Me too.

[Mathijs]

Like you said yourself:

His strength was in his words, his confidence, his race and his Ring of Fire.

Sauron was more powerful, but Gandalf was wiser. I fail to see how Sauron wouldn't stand a chance if Gandalf had his full power.

In Middle-earth it was. Gandalf was allowed to use only a fragment of his true power in Middle-earth.

*agrees with zimoo and Sûl about Morgul orcs* I like their superiority in being able to gain upgrades, because in RotK there's this scene where you can see an armoury of Morgul, and they have some pretty nasty stuff there. Oh, and thanks for the compliment Nâzgul.

Edited by Matias, 02 June 2007 - 06:24 PM.

[zimoo]

But it is said in the Sil (I think) that Sauron was the greatest/most powerful of the Maiar. I guess with his diminished power it might be a closer battle.

[Servant of Sauron]

Another thing that I feel should be mentioned is that if Morgul Orcs aren't going to be better except for recieving upgrades make them cheaper as IMHO 300 is too much, especially conidering that you're effectively paying two thirds more for the same thing until the upgrades.

Another thing, the Morgul legions are if not hardier then better disciplined and better equipped so if there cost is going to be 300 make them at least have better armour and damage if not health.

Also, I believe the Orcs of Morgul were a different breed created specifically to challenge the forces of Gondor. That however, will need researching as I honestly don't remember.

*Prepares to run to the library*

[Lauri]

Reason to cost being higher than normal orcs?
They CAN have upgrades... so you don't spam them early-game You spam the normal orcs (Gorgoroth) and then, when you've reseached the upgrades, you start buying the Morgul Orcs...
If they'd cost 100.... You would've only created them, and when you've purchased the HA and FB upgrades, you'd upgrade them... as if they were normal orcs
That's the reason they cost more... They don't need no more armor or health or damage than what they can be upgraded with