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SEE Spellbooks


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#1 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 01:50 PM

As you may know the current spellbooks' spell selection for the 6 factions is not entirely satisfying: too many duplicate spells (including duplication of hero powers), impact and reload times are not really balanced (though Nazgûl already adjusted some of their costs), arbitrary and sometimes quite unsuitable division among the factions and more.
To address this, i have come up with a few ideas on how to rearrange/alter existing spells (without adjustment to cost and other values so far) as well as a few suggestions regarding additional spell to be added to specific factions. One thing new; every factions should have a definite and unique 'theme' the flows through the whole of the spellbook. Mind that the following list is not complete at all. All factions should have 12 spells, but they should already differ in the selection of the very first powers.


Spellbook-Overview

General Notes:
  • The usual summon spells (temporary summons) should have a definite location that they appear from, either they can only be used on woods (for ambush type summons) or anywhere, but are arriving from the map edge, like smaug does. Since the watcher is immobile, he should be able to appear just about anywhere.
  • Location/Building Summons (like Lone Tower) should STAY UNTIL KILLED, but the spell button should only be recharging, once all of them are dead. They should cost the usual CP's or even more, but be summonable, no matter if the limit has already been met.
  • Spells that i find unsuitable for a faction are noted as '(Uns.)' and are colored RED
  • Moved or altered spells are colored CYAN
  • New spells, or rather spells not in the original BfME2 skirmish spellbooks are colored YELLOW
'
Factions Spellbooks and their themes

Men of the West (Theme: Allies and Economy)
  • Heal 'Location Summon' (Summons healing well. Too many heroes already have a healing spell in the game)
  • RallyingCall
  • Rebuild
  • TomBombadil 'Location Summon' (different from usual sommon: summons Tom, Goldberry, their house and garden. Are unselectable. Bound to house [his 'domain'] like Warg bound to Warg chain. But cannot be released and respawn like creep units.)
  • HobbitAllies (only in woods)
  • DunedainAllies (only once we make them unique enough to significantly differ from IthilienRangers)
  • LoneTower 'Location Summon'
  • EagleAllies (high lifetime, recharge only when dead)
  • Remove Arrow Volley (Too many units have this already, as well as many other factions. Use exclusively for Elves)
  • CloudBreak
  • Dol-Amroth Allies (instead of Rohirrim)
  • Pûkelmen Stonering 'Location Summon' (Stonering akin to the entmoot with different skins and statues instead or in addition of stones; unselectable Drûedain defending the ring agains enemies of MotW.
  • ArmyoftheDead (Only usable on area around Aragorn)
  • Remove Earthquake (Only for Dwarves, maybe caused by undermining)
'
Elves (Theme: Forces of Nature)
  • RallyingCall
  • Remove Heal (Too many heroes already have a healing spell. Fortress Upgrades and Healing Wells are abundant. Also all elven units have innate regeneration, just like heroes)
  • Farsight (Like Palantir, also provide a bonus to allied troops in the area)
  • EnshroudingMist
  • ArrowVolley
  • Gush of Air (Area attack that mostly does almost only kockback damage)
  • ElvenWood
  • CloudBreak
  • Huornwood 'Location Summon' (Huorns[like ents, but no moving capabilities], only in woods, behavior like Tom above)
  • Remove EntAllies (already buildable, but see above line for an alternative)
  • Remove EagleAllies and add them to Dwarves (They already have an Eirie, which could enable them to buy 2 normal Eagles + Gwaihir instead)
  • Tornado (remove from Galadriel and give her something appropriate, she has the ring of water after all)
  • Flood
  • Sunflare
'
Dwarves (Themes: Buildings, Siege and Economy)
...

Mordor (Themes: Dark Forces of Nature, Corruption and War)
...

Isengard (Themes: Economy, Exploitation and Direct Assault)
...

Wild (Themes: Dragons, Fell Creatures, Pillage and Sneaky Tactics)
...

I'll add the rest of my handwritten notes at a later date. This is not really pressing since all is geared to complete BetaIV anyways: :ninja:

Edited by Nazgûl, 31 January 2009 - 05:08 PM.

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#2 Uruk King

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:15 PM

Nice list there Sul, but may I offer some suggestions:

Men

* Heal (keep the normal healing spell the same cuz it has an appropriate Gondor soldier being healed)
* Valour of Men (Same as rallying call but less amour and slightly more damage)
* Rebuild
* I'm not with idea of Tom Bombadil doing having any part at all in this mod because he dosn't do any fighting so mabye a Legolas/Gimli summon or "Unlikely allies" would be nice.
* Lone Tower
* Horn of Rohan (Summons 3 batalions of special Westfold Infantry, just to increase the presence of Rohan)
* Hobbit Allies
* Dunedain allies (changes could include the ability to toggle sword/bow, and being stouter that Itilien Rangers)
* Wind of the West (Bad weather effects are expelled, with a wind sound effect)
* KoDA
* Army of the Dead
* Draw Swords together (summons the bst troops of Gondor and Rohan)

Mordor

* Eye of Sauron
* Tainted land
* Fell strength
* Barricade
* Wild allies (summons large numbers of Trolls, Wargs and Wights)
* Industry
* Sudden Fire (the terrain ignites causeing units, allies or enemy to burn)
* Call the Horde
* Darkness
* Volcano (replaces barrage, a miniture volcano erupts, acting like a Watcher, killing everything around it)/ Summon 3 Black Uruk hordes
* Rain of Fire
* He has Gathered all Evil to Him (Other Dark units are available for purchass)

Isengard

* Palantir
* Crebain
* War Chant
* Devestation
* Spoiled Land (the land turns to grey dirt, and scaffolding is errected)
* Snaga (Summon Moria orcs, based on the fact that numerous orcs were Saruman's slaves)
* Industry
* Fuel in the Fires
* Freezing Rain
* Dark influence (Gives targeted units 70% Fear Resistance, resist Knockback and a 15% speed increase)
* Churning Pits (Unit production time decreased by 75%
* Balrog (the Balrog is used by this faction only)

Edited by Uruk King, 01 June 2007 - 06:27 AM.

I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#3 Mathijs

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:20 PM

The balrog only for Isengard? It makes more sense to have him only for the Wild, since they are about goblins... and the goblins of Moria worshipped the balrog.

No fuel left for the pilgrims


#4 Mordor Slayer

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 03:51 PM

I say keep the healing spell. It can be a life savior when your sieging, and not many heroes can heal regular units.

@ Uruk king: those are some nice ideas, especially the Spoiled land and Sudden fire ones. The Volcano and Balrog only for Isengard I'm not sure about...
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#5 Uruk King

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 04:06 PM

I'll tell you why, first I ned to back up my idea with a spell list for the Goblins

Wild

* Cave Bats
* Drums of the Deep (targeted units are gain 50% armor and strength)
* Fresh Slaves (targeted strutures are repaired)
* Scavenger
* untamed alleigance
* Wargs (instaed of spiderlings, 15 wild wargs are summoned to fight)
* Wildmen
* Shadow and Flame (same as darkness)
* Watcher in the Water
* Awaken Wyrm
* Summon Dragon
* Summon Smaug

I gave the Balrog to Isengard because, I thought at first that a version of the Balrog with similar stats to Sauron could be the Ring hero, so hypethetically the goblins still have the Balrog, but they need the Ring first. And Dragons have very little relevence to Isengard, but the Balrog is closer. And I felt it necesary that Smaug belonged to the Goblins.
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#6 clonecommand

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:10 PM

Yes, I say keep the heal. Heros are expensive and take a while to level up to get the heal power. The spell book is a quicker fix.

I also say get rid of the summonable Tom Bombadil. He is the WORST thing in the game. I rather have a horde of goblins than him. He is slow and does almost no damage. He is not worth the 10 or 12 points. Maybe the summon his house thing will be nicer :p

#7 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 08:19 PM

I don't know if you realized, but my suggestions were a) MotW Heal be replaced by an instant well (like lonetower) and b) please count the elves that CAN heal heroes: Arwen, Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn; PLUS all elven infantry have self-heal. :)


@Uruk King: Nice list! Not all would be my choice for a spell, but i especially like the new ones, or at least their names. Care to elaborate what they do? Some only have names and no descriptions. :p

Edited by Sulherokhh, 31 May 2007 - 08:21 PM.

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#8 Uruk King

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:03 PM

and what's that gonna do, make enemies cower in fear?

Tom Bombadil, I hope won't make it into the MotW. Goldberry an their house, would be even more rediculous; imagine Goldberry fighting. We simply have no movie reference or design. So what do you think should replace him?

I've also got some ideas for Elves and Dwarves:

Elves

* Elven Refuge (summons a Mirror of Galadriel)
* Could you put Elven wood has a starting power, in the same way Mordor can get tainted land early
* Farsight
* Mist
* Gush of Air (prevents enemy movement)
* arrow volley
* Tom Bombadil
* Summon Hourons (Summons 3 animated large Fnagorn trees)
* Springtime (Sun breaks through darkness or rain. Slowly heals all friendly units throughout the map)
* Tornado
* Lights go out (Enemy units within casting area have their attack, accuracy and vision stats reduced)/Sunflare
* Flood

Dwarves

* Fortification (the errain turns to a stone floor with statues, adds an armor bonus)
* Rebuild
* Ravens (summons a flock of ravens similar to crebain to scout the map)
* Dwarven Riches
* Men of Dale?
* Raw Materials (passive, upgrades and seige weapons are produced and researched quicker)
* Mighty rage (Hero recharge timers are reduced by 1/4)
* Undermine
* Cloud Break
* Barrage
* Citadel
* Earthquake

Edited by Uruk King, 01 June 2007 - 01:45 PM.

I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#9 m@tt

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:17 PM

"Springtime", "Lights go out" and "He has gathered all evil to him" sound a bit familiar...

Edited by mh_gollum, 31 May 2007 - 09:26 PM.

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#10 Mathijs

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 09:49 PM

Yes, yes indeed.

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#11 Nazgûl

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 10:20 PM

I'm gonna stay out of this discussion until we get there... so feel free to hurl your ideas and thoughs but don't expect me to dig into this matter until we have caught up on the list of other things. I think this should be done long after all the librarys are done. I like to change the spell system too, but I think it's too early to discuss it, at least for me :p


And Uruk King, you should put the Beta Tester banner in your sign... :)

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#12 Mathijs

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 09:51 AM

Salvaging is taking something from an abandoned object. Inspiration is basing your things off something.

This is plain copypasta.

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#13 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:08 PM

Well, we are not going to steal from another mod. For that reason i am trying not to look to other mods for ideas. And it is actually not so hard to find inspiration elsewhere.

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#14 Nazgûl

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 12:53 PM

lol, yeah, noboy'd gonna do any stealing from anyone... even though sometimes ideas DO cross, since we're all basically doing the same thing, modding BFME :p

One thing that I've always liked to have in this mod is Peter Jackson (since this mod is a tribute not only to Tolkien, but very much to Mr PJ), but since I saw that at least WoA have that I didn't put any effort into it. Now that was long ago and today I have a good relation to Argolis (we got the Goblin Drummer from him) so maybe he wont mind if we ad PJ. But that is just an example of how sometimes different mods come up with basically the same ideas . But pure stealing is never fun though I agree, at least not if it is intended like that =p

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#15 Uruk King

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 01:57 PM

You're thinking about that coarsair hero, I dunno, Mordor has Gothmog, Shagrat, Mouth of Sauron, 8 nazgul and the Witch King, we've already taken the Goblin Drummer from Argolis, we best not, take Capt. Jackson (as he calls him). This mod has taken one idea from another, now I've wantomly stolen good Dain's ideas, we (including me) shouldn't take any mod content from ayone else. :p

Sorry Matias :thumbsupsmiley:
I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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#16 Nazgûl

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:01 PM

we've already taken the Goblin Drummer from Argolis, we best not, take Capt. Jackson (as he calls him).


Well, it was donated, not "taken"... and Argolis said I could ask if there was someting else I needed. Jackson wouldn't be a hero I think, but rather a feature of the Mordor Tavern much like the Warg sentry :p

But this is not the place to discuss that, this thread if for Spellbooks :thumbsupsmiley:

Edited by Nazgûl, 01 June 2007 - 02:02 PM.

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#17 Mathijs

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 02:55 PM

You're thinking about that coarsair hero, I dunno, Mordor has Gothmog, Shagrat, Mouth of Sauron, 8 nazgul and the Witch King, we've already taken the Goblin Drummer from Argolis, we best not, take Capt. Jackson (as he calls him). This mod has taken one idea from another, now I've wantomly stolen good Dain's ideas, we (including me) shouldn't take any mod content from ayone else. :p

Sorry Matias :thumbsupsmiley:

Don't worry about it, at least I won't. :thumbsupsmiley: Just be original in the future, it's best for both sides.

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#18 Gherrick

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:16 PM

Dwarven powers:
- Allies from Hills- summons 3 Iron Hill Dwarven Battalions (Dwarves with swords and shields/ mattocks toggle- mattocks are deadly vs buildings and swords+shields are great vs units).
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#19 Mordor Slayer

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 11:36 AM

Maybe we could use Grond as a summon? I got the idea when watching a trailer from the Elven Alliance...
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#20 Uruk King

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 12:57 PM

Thats pretty interesting, but we might as well keep Grond as the Ultimate seige weapon, in the same way Isengard has mines. But if anyone can think of a 25 point spell which has got nothing what-so-ever to do with RA, it could get a place in my list.

Edited by Uruk King, 03 June 2007 - 12:59 PM.

I will remember Rhovanion Alliance, RIP .

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