27 replies to this topic

[clonecommand]

I voted other: static cp, but MUCH higher. 2500 vs 3500

[Distant]

I don’t really see a good reason to raise CP on any faction when the same effect can be had by lowering CP costs of units that are desired to be particularly numerous. What attracts me most, is the idea that different factions may acquire CP from different activities, giving each a unique flavor.

I do think that some of the reasoning for CP effects from expansion can rock both ways. Something to consider, when looking at the balance of factions that are primarily geared towards defense, is the lack of CP cost for their defensive structures. I do no propose changing this. However, I do think it’s worth looking at the fact that, in order to win, they do have to come outside sometime.

To my mind, a defensively inclined faction should have enough CP and low enough CP costs that they can defend their fortress without ever stepping outside of it, given the judicious use of constructed fortifications. Such a force, however, may need to be able to expand their CP adequately when leaving their happy home so as to be a viable force when not surrounded by friendly walls and turrets. Unless of course, such expansion had an equal amount of hampering of enemy CP amounts as seems to be the current suggestion.

On the other hand, an army that lacks significant defensive options for their fortress would need to have significant CP to protect themselves against an expanded army. Unless, of course, that army is weakened by the lack of its usual defensive towers.

My basic point is that I don’t think expandable or non-expandable CP is going to have a serious effect on game balance provided that unit CP costs and the power level of defensive structures are balanced accordingly. My vote (listed as other) is to make all of the factions behave as wildly differently from each other as possible. And not just good vs. evil. I’d like to see each faction represent their style as much as possible.

Some examples.

Dwarves: makes the most sense for a faction that gains CP from fortress upgrades, and statues.

Elves: makes the most sense for a faction that gains CP like crazy from bringing out heroes.

Goblins: makes the most sense for a faction that gains CP by spreading goblin holes all over hell and creation.

Isengard: makes the most sense for a faction that gains CP through research/upgrades on their various buildings.

It wouldn’t hurt things for some factions to mix it up a bit, getting half their CP bonuses from one type of growth and half from another. I just really want to see more serious differences in the factions, and how they gain CP is the perfect opportunity to make each more distinct.

[Distant]

Apologies, in my above post my thoughts were still in motion as I wrote. Here is my proposal to the handling of CP in the final version, based on my vocal belief in extreme faction diversity. The CP numbers I’m giving are for example purposes, and will obviously require some balancing after testing, but ideally the CP cap numbers should be the same for all factions, with army sized controlled by the CP value of individual units.

Factions start with 400 CP, and can expand up to a maximum of 1000 CP through five possible activities. Each faction only has access to two of the activities and any single activity has a cap of 300 CP that can be earned. Thus, 400 + 300 + 300 = 1000.

The five activites are:

Fortress Upgrades, where each advancement made to the fortress provides some CP in addition to its normal bonuses.

Building Upgrades, where each level advancement purchased for a building gives some CP in addition to the building’s new capabilities.

Hero Production, where each hero recruited adds to the CP total while they serve.

Income Expansion, where each income building (farms, mines, etc.) constructed adds some CP to the total.

Military Expansion, where each unit-bonus granting building (statues, hearths, banners, etc.) built adds some CP to the total.

I’d like to see other types of activities, these are just the ones that I’ve either already seen implemented or that I’ve seen will most definitely be possible to implement. For example, I think it might be cool to have a faction such as the Naughty-Men (my working title until that debate is settled) gain CP as they kill enemies, but I have no idea how feasible that sort of thing is.

My proposed faction activities are as follows:

Mordor: Fortress Upgrades and Income Expansion
Isengard: Building Upgrades and Income Expansion
Goblins: Hero Production and Income Expansion
Angmar: Fortress Upgrades and Military Expansion
Naughty-Men: Income Expansion and Military Expansion
Gondor: Fortress Upgrades and Hero Production
Rohan: Building Upgrades and Military Expansion
Elves: Hero Production and Military Expansion
Dwarves: Fortress Upgrades and Building Upgrades
Arnor: Building Upgrades and Hero Production

As you can see, there are no repeats. Each faction would have a unique approach to CP gain which is fitting with their style within the story material. I hope some aspect of this idea proves useful.

[Spointz2020]

i sayz aye but many of these implemental changes to various systems we call for, and even vote for have yet to even be commented on by rob :(

[Dzhon]

I like where you're going with those ideas, Distant.

[Spointz2020]

jeesus christ since when did i have over a 125 posts!!! seriously is something wrong with me?? i don't even recall spending to many late hours on the forums of the recent days..... o wait its already 2:15 am here!

Edited by Spointz2020, 10 August 2007 - 05:12 PM.

[Distant]

In all honesty, Spointz, I’m glad Rob is spending more time working on the mod than reading these forums. I’m glad that our feedback is of value, and I give my ideas freely in the hopes that they inspire something good in the finished product. But, to my mind, 1.05.03 on my hard drive is worth more than any number of my wishful posts on a forum. I’m content to wait, and equally content to throw out ideas, whether or not they are being read. It’s all for fun after all.

[robnkarla]

Well, I have been away for a little too long on the forums, and I'm trying to go through as much as I can. I'm been mostly just reading posts and have not taken that much time to respond. Because I am switching to a more private beta in the next release I've really been trying to implement many changes, and often even the smallest take time. (On top of a wife, three children, and a 40+ hour job, hehe, you can see how that goes. I still don't know I've even come this far sometimes.

So, as for some of the discussion:

Distant - What I love most about the ideas are they are more "outside the box". I like the idea that each faction would have different options to raise CP, but my biggest concern would be maintaining simplicity. I don't want there to be too many things and differences to remember. So here is a counter idea:

How about each faction gains CP from:
1) Fortress
2) Resource Buildings
3) Heroes (I like one of the ideas from jimmyman where maybe they start off with a lower cp bonus, and as they gain levels/powers the heroes gain higher cp. So maybe Aragorn might start at a 10 or 25 cp bonus, but each level gains 5, and maybe an extra 25 when Heroes of Gondor is puchased. This puts the priority back the level of the hero vs. the # of heroes. I've already begun looking into the structure I want to use as I'm going through redoing some items on the heroes.)

Then each faction has an alternate way of gaining CP, thus emphasizing their faction strengths. We can all discuss the different approaches to gaining cp that each faction should have, even if it means they gain MORE CP in one of the three areas than other factions.

Now this will cover the BFME2 and the BFME1/BFME2 style maps. BFME1 pure maps will have the static CP limits, but I will probably leave them at 1000/1500. I'm going to try to figure out how I can have the static number be higher with the higher cp limit options.

So there are some of my ideas on this topic

At this moment I don't want to announce all the things in 1.05.03, but so far everything is getting closer and closer to the factions being finished.

Robert J.

since when did i have over a 125 posts!!! seriously is something wrong with me?? i don't even recall spending to many late hours on the forums of the recent days..... o wait its already 2:15 am here!

Lastly, I'm actually now leaning to starting a much smaller group of beta testers for the next release and Spointz, these types of posts really don't help in my decisions. Just thought I'd let you know.

Edited by robnkarla, 11 August 2007 - 05:52 PM.