20 replies to this topic

[LEGO]

Read something about this recently.
explain to those don't know this yet:
It's a US artillery tactic in WW2. With help of ballistic computers, a US artillery unit can manage the fire time of each single artillery, to make all their shells arrive the enemy at the very same time.
It brings tactical advantage because if it was a common bombardment, the enemy would have some time try find some cover since he hear the first shoot.
I don't clear whether, or when they shared it with UK.
OK, back to what I really want to say: can we have it in D-Day?
simplly use the gattling tag, make a LongTom's first weapon have a higher damage.
yes it's not real TOT, but the result is almost same: US artillerys have a sudden strike edge in 1st shoot, while some others have to spend more time and ammo. A side effect will be, US players to be more tend to hit and run and hit. some balance will be good: make the 2nd weapon's ROF small enough, and artillerys can't do moving fire, then US players won't move all the time.
How about it, comrades?

[Rattuskid]

Um I don't think this technology came about until the Crusader self-propelled artillery was being tested, and it could only do it thanks to a high reload rate and varying trajectories, highest being first. I think that first started tests in like 2000.

In WW2, targetting computers, or more accuratley their forefathers were so damn big (vacuum tubes) only battleships could mount them, and even then they were like sixty times less capable of computations than your iPod. It's not like American artillery battalions lugged around giant calculators with them. With multiple units, if you want your shells to land at the same time, roughly, you just fire them at the same time and same angle.

[LEGO]

seems you misunderstood it, Rattuskid.
It's not one gun shot 10 shells and 10 shells hit at a same time
It's 10 guns shot 10 shells and 10 shells hit at a same time. So it's nothing to do with a high reload rate and varying trajectories.

There is someone described it more clearly than I did:
Artillery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia-
A technique called Time on Target was developed by the US Army during World War 2. This technique uses a precise determination of the time of flight from each firing battery to the target area. When a Time on Target (TOT) is designated ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery - 136k -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery

I don't know really much about it, but seems many morden artillerys can manage a TOT.

[wilmet]

I think it's just basic maths based on trajectory, velocity of rounds, distance and windspeed or whatnot... no need for computers (I'm illiterate in maths btw ).

EDIT:

Imagine a battery of howitzers, mobile rocket launchers, or mortars. In a conventional attack, when all the guns fire independently along the same approximate trajectory, the shells or rockets will arrive spread out over some time, giving the recipients time to spread out or take cover. In a time on target barrage, the guns will fire on different trajectories, first on long high arcs, then on medium trajectories, then low and fast. All the shells fired in this fashion will arrive more or less simultaneously. This allows even a small battery to wreak massive havoc, since the unlucky recipients of the fire have no warning and no time to escape. This type of barrage can, with excellent communications and control, also be spread between multiple batteries in different locations, causing even more destruction. Also, the (now-defunct) Crusader artillery system, with its robotic loading and powerful ballistics computers, was designed to be capable of launching a powerful time on target barrage using only one gun.

Update: Ouroboros informs me of the studies done by the US military on the psychological effects of this type of attack. Apparently the total artillery silence followed by the sudden bursting of huge numbers of shells devastates morale just as much as the physical destruction

Edited by wilmet, 14 June 2007 - 07:47 AM.

[LEGO]

But to run these basic maths precise and fast enough you may need a computer.
And (I've heard that ) it's Machenical computers, not Electronical. Machenical computers in WW2 can be small enough to carry with a artillery battalion, tho can do nothing eles other than those basic maths

[Rattuskid]

You mean an abaccus? Yeah. I'm sure they existed, but that's not the central tenet your trumpetting. Besides, it's gone from "they did use computers", to "they may have used computers" and next it will be "in theory they could have used...".

The effect as described in Wiki is referring to many battalions firing TOT, basically syncronizing the flights of their projectiles based on their distance from target by use of varying fire times. The effect would be impossible in YR because the distance of 5 units from one target, even with sophistocated gattling setups, cannot have individual control of their fire times to hit at once. Remember, it's just subtraction of the time of flight from their position to the target from the set time of impact.

In other words, you'd need a tag that said...

"if 5 cells away rof=74"
"If 6 cells away rof=69"
"If 7 cells away for=58"
etc.

[LEGO]

I'm sorry for have confused you. I'm not a native English speaker, you know
Anyway, what I mean is: they DID use computers. Tho it's not the point of my post.
Back to that point.
Seems you misunderstood it. I'm not that crazy to ask for a REAL TOT in Yuri.
My logic is:
Statistically, TOT increased the damage of the 1st shoot. It's a special advantage of the US Army in RL.
So, to featrue the US Army with some special advantage in game(every modder should try that, right?), we can make US artillery's 1st shoot with more damage. It can be made with gattlin tag easily.
I don't care at all whether the shells in game fall at a same time. It's not a exact simulation of RL, but better than none.
So, what I care and want to discuss here is: will it(or similar unexact simulation) let you recall the RL history better and lead to a better gameplay? Is there any idea better than this one? Should we have it in D-Day?
Alright, hope it's more clear now.

Edited by LEGO, 15 June 2007 - 05:25 AM.

[Mig Eater]

I’m just going to sit back & see what public debate comes up with on this one.

[Andre27]

I'm familiar with the TOT, but this was actually a common tactic for most western nations.

Aside from that the in game effect would be neglect able so i'd have to vote against this idea.

[Rattuskid]

I'm sorry for have confused you. I'm not a native English speaker, you know

You're not confusing me specifically, you're just not making any sense. Look...

My logic is:
Statistically, TOT increased the damage of the 1st shoot.

See, this is where your losing the comparison. Even by your own admission, the effect is the enemy can't duck after hearing the first alignment shots and the damage on morale is higher if all the shots land at once.

So statisically it doesn't make the first shot (the one with no warning) more effect, it makes all the other shots AS EFFECTIVE AS THE FIRST. You're seeming to use a vague concept of what armies did to justify a little pet-project piece of ini code you've been working on, when the effect and functionality are very different.

Besides, people would just exploit a gattling weapon with a slow ROF and obvious advantage like that. Instead of letting them fire, they'd just keep pressing 's' inbetween the slow reloads to get their higher damage shots in. A wiser idea would someone like an artillery spotter who can use tesla coil overpower logic to tell deployed building artillery nearby (or by use of minimum range, at a set distance) where a target is normally out of range or to deliver a more accurate/powerful shot.

Edited by Rattuskid, 16 June 2007 - 01:23 AM.

[LEGO]

Rattuskid,I don't think that's of no sense.
When I said "1st shoot", what I mean is not the 1st shoot of the 1st gun, but the 1st shootS of each gun.
Coz with a TOT their shell Should all fall at asame time.
If you think it's "a vague concept of what armies did to justify...", yes it is. And so is it in many other games. Take an example as "An Action Of War", How they define AMRAAM? not multi-targeting, not warning-less shoot, not Fire And Forget, only "+50% Damage". It's of same vague, if not more. But a little better than none.
And for the trick of "S"key, a little "charging time" will be enough to deal with it.
BTW, I like your "artillery spotter" idea.

Anyway, I respect the 2 author's desicion. If MigEater against it as Andre, then that's all for it.

PS: Andre, I've never seen "this was actually a common tactic for most western nations" in WW2, tho it's Now very common all the world. You mean in WW2, right? Plz share me some reading material?

[Jeeves]

Nice idea, but can't see it working ingame, except as a SW.
Whilst conventional arty SW's might involve indervidual shells falling, this could be simulated by applying the damage singularly over the area.

RA just lacks the capacity for complex arty tacktics like coordinating shell land times or the British MG bombardment.

[Rattuskid]

Nice idea, but can't see it working ingame, except as a SW.
Whilst conventional arty SW's might involve indervidual shells falling, this could be simulated by applying the damage singularly over the area.

Actually that would work much better, instead of being a weather storm clone, it could just be one weapon. Nice idea. Although it may be more prudent to make use of the 'cluster' tag here rather than rely on just a wide cellspread.

[Jeeves]

Even better idea
Must think of an excuse to do similar in LS

[LEGO]

It'd be nice to be a SW, but a noTOT SW arty-bombing is already almost impossible to escape, then TOT is not of much use
BTW, Jee, I want to know what happen to LS beside "ring ring ring ring, Banana Phone!"

[Jeeves]

Not much, but you have to admit that "Marquee Hell" pwns - even if my IT lecturer doesn't think its worth the A+

And it would be essentially the same as an arty SW, but it is a bit more interesting than just cloning the one

[Andre27]

PS: Andre, I've never seen "this was actually a common tactic for most western nations" in WW2, tho it's Now very common all the world. You mean in WW2, right? Plz share me some reading material?

All i can find of such short notice is this Wiki Article.

The technique is developed by the US army. It only makes sense however that each army which saw the use of this technique quickly adopted it for their own use.

[LEGO]

Thx Andre, but I can't open Wiki thanks to my government...
So plz copy & post some words here?

[wilmet]

and I thought my government was bad at sticking it's nose into my daily business...

here you go LEGO:

[edit] Time on Target
A technique called Time on Target was developed by the US Army during World War 2. This technique uses a precise determination of the time of flight from each firing battery to the target area. When a Time on Target (TOT) is designated each battery that will join in firing on that target subtracts the time of flight from the TOT to determine the time to fire. Individual firing batteries train to fire their rounds as close to simultaneously as possible. When each firing battery fires their rounds at their individual time to fire every round will reach the target area nearly simultaneously. This is especially effective when combined with techniques that allow fires for effect to be made without preliminary adjusting fires.

[LEGO]

Thx a lot, Comrade Wilmet