1257 replies to this topic

[Fyro11]

YodaWarrior,

Imo the Stoneworker has been dismissed too hastily. As I will explain, either the Stoneworker or an entirely new building, or the best and easiest option imo- the Fortress could be used for the sort of upgrades I am mentioning below. Also, I believe that each of these upgrades can be used for the BFME2 maps as well.:

You said that White Rider is pointless if Gandalf isn't present and that there could be a general leadership bonus instead. I agree with you, but I already think there is a general leadership bonus available from the 'Banners upgrade' from the Fortress and it could be attached to that, if at all. Anyhow I personally don't want to argue for this as I am not toooo bother about it.

Myrdin mentioned Restless Guards, this could be incorporated in 2 ways, one or the other, or both. The first is the buff the towers and trebs attached to the castle receive in terms of speed. The other feature is the guards patrolling inside the castle as well as, or simply just archers on the walls. Btw I think every faction should have this kinda patrols upgrade unless it is totally offensive faction like maybe Mord/Isen.

Then you have Glory of the White City, and my question would be, what is wrong with this? In most, if not all factions, the first upgrade and the cheapest upgrade available is Banner Carrier. Most factions provide this for a measly 400-500. Plus, by adding this White City upgrade I can argue that this won't imbalance the factions even though this argument hasn't been used as yet. The reason it won't imbalance is, because rush tactics are not a common tactic of BFME1. The only way you could besiege a city like Gondor which has strong as hell walls in the first place, is by preparing a good and powerful army. If you normally use pults to destroy Gondor gates as early (not rush) tactic then this option is still open to you as siege weapons mustn't be affected anyway by the White City upgrade. And lastly, this upgrade should only be available in the RJ maps, for it is difficult to implement in BFME2 maps. Maybe you could do it around the Fortress in BFME2 maps, but its totally up to you. Remember it has to be light shining around the castle.

Plus, what about Fortified Gate, Gate of Kings, Gate of Endurance, or whatever one wants to call it LOL.. That is a must for Gondor, for right now the Isen/Mordor battering rams knock 3 times and gate is shattered as well as your level 3 buildings which the rams take out in seconds. You can see for yourself- just play against Gondor, be Isen or Mordor and crumble their buildings and citadel in seconds. I love doing that. So the Fortified Gate is a must.

The important thing is that all these upgrades are available for late use in the game, apart from the Restless Guards Patrols upgrade. If I have anything more to add, I'll do so later though I think you have enough on your plate as it is lol .

Edited by Fyro11, 27 April 2008 - 02:50 AM.

[Devon]

I didn't dismiss it...I just objected to one or two of the upgrades

[Fyro11]

Hi Yoda,

You wouldn't mind reading the post over, as I modified and edited it. Thanks man.

[CIL]

I see someone else here actually has the ability to mount a decent arguement other than myself a few others that actually have the patience to go take the time to write that crap. I don't recall doing it often. But I am capable of it... but anyways, back on topic... Stoneworker needs to go back in and I hate it when battering rams rip through everything in a matter of seconds... Nerf them. Nerf them big time. Please.

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 11 May 2008 - 07:35 AM.

[Myrdin]

3 things.

1/ BUFF THEM, BUFF THE GATES ( with or without upgrade, i dont care, just remember BFME had upgrade for their gate )
2/ Glory of the white city - all units at LVL 1 will recieve fear if theyr near too much the walls ( which is, when they go next to it, ), as i said most people get ( sooner or later ) banner cariers, and at lvl 2 they woul be inafected by the fear. As Fyro, really precisely explained - prevents from early rush. ( though the upgrade itself would cost around 1000, soo you wont be able to get such think " for nothing " + you need to get units/heroes too ), soo basically you upgrade your units to lvl 2, and get the siege roling.
3/ Restless guard, was ment for the tower/trebuchet adjustments - oncreasing the attack speed by 50%. Lets say it soo - if you would live all the time near the shadow of Mordor, you would propably spend much of time to train, make formations, regrouping and stuff ( that is basically done in the training camps, of our modern world every day - if you join army ), soo they could be prepared all the time.

hmm few more points.

4/ the upgrade that allows unocotrolable units to roam around specific places in your castle, isnt that bad idea. Gondor was the most defensive city type of all other ( Dwarfs, more then on units, have much powerfull, durable, stronger walls, buildings, towers, etc, soo its something diferent - at least they should have - the most powerfull buildings, castle of all races ) soo basically these units would wander around and shoot - as do the Archers at loriend fortress. Later they could be upgraded ( with one upgrade ), and recieve FB and HV. Well as much as you look at it, unlike for example Helms Deep, Gondor had guards all the time presented, becouse Minas tirith is CITY/FORTRESS.
Lastly i think it would be interesting, and unique.

as for other races - Mordor ( black gate guards ) Isengard ( In the movie you could see groups of pikemans roaming the walls ), Goblins ( no ), MotE ( maybe ). Could get this upgrade too + all other good races ( only Elfs not, for their were weak in numbers, compared to others, and they dont really need it for theyr are the most unique race right now )

of course the previous thing could happen only if evil races could " upgrade - rise up " their walls, as Yoda suggested ( and i like that idea really much )

[Zyzzyva]

The only problem in my mind about Glory of the White City is it would give you a huge boost over spam factions, because no Goblin or Mordor player in their right mind is ever going to upgrade all their forces with banner carriers. Their basic unit would then be useless and then they would have to rely on heros and monsters, because buying banner carrier goblins/orcs would defeat the purpose of the low cost.

Also, it cant effect everyone because monsters/siege cant get banner carriers. But I guess thats probably what you meant.

Generally, if this is impletemented, I just want there to be a reasonable counter for spam factions (like drummer trolls cancel out its affects for Mordor and something along those lines for goblins). Even for Isengard this is a big disadvantage, but at least then by the time your oppenent gets the upgrade most of your troops are upgraded and survive to level 2 or you use banner carriers to keep them alive.

Perhaps a few other factions should get unique upgrades to counterbalance all these upgrades (gondor and arnor building upgrades, dwarves and isengard unit upgrades, mordor and goblins and dwarves siege/monsters, rohan horses. But not all the factions should have acsess to them)

[Myrdin]

monsters nor siege is efected by fear ( try to attack troll lair, with nazghul or hero that has " instill fear " abyility - Cah )
of course it wouldnt be that powerfull - it would be more like mordor watcher - makes units run away, and need to reload first.
or something like that

- or it can just cause dread wisage like efect on enemies, without the fear factor ( dread wisage, slows, enemies and takes away % of armor and dmg ), of course the " model efect " would be diferent - some shiny light or somehting

[Devon]

The logic is kinda messed up too...mordor wasn't afraid of attacking the white city, but the men of gondor were inspired by the glory of gondor. So, I think it should be a buff for your own guys.


And yes, no mordor player in my experience has ever purchased banners And right now..there's really no point. It doesn't give you as big of a boost as bfme1, though it probably will be worth it once rob gets working on it.

[Myrdin]

sigh . . . yoda - if you purchase banners at castle, it gives you weaker wersion of leadership. soo why should you do the same thing twice.
either do something new, OR just increase the range of the fortress leadership soo it can reach up units in front of castle ( the two places near gate where you can - if you skilled, pump more than one batallion )

[Devon]

Then we remove banners Idk...

[Fyro11]

The logic is kinda messed up too...mordor wasn't afraid of attacking the white city, but the men of gondor were inspired by the glory of gondor. So, I think it should be a buff for your own guys.


And yes, no mordor player in my experience has ever purchased banners And right now..there's really no point. It doesn't give you as big of a boost as bfme1, though it probably will be worth it once rob gets working on it.

Ok how about Restless Guards (the two upgrades mentioned 1) patrols and 2) the speed buff for the towers and trebs. Also, what about Fortified Gate?

Remember these are late game upgrades that can be added onto the Fortress. So no new buildings needed.

[Devon]

I thought the whole point was to re-add stoneworker?

[Fyro11]

I thought the whole point was to re-add stoneworker?

The 'whole point' was to add the upgrades whichever way you want . I personally thought Fortress would be an easier option for you guys, PLUS, the Restless Guards upgrade (which i think sounds better as Vigil Guards) doesn't really relate to stone lol. So it would seem that the only stone-related upgrade would be the Fortified Gate (if that). The other two upgrades were dismissed by you and others, though there could be a compromise on Glory of the White City- which also doesn't happen to relate to stone haha.

[Myrdin]

or we could split the restless guard upgrade what do you think fyro

lets say it soo
the other one would then recive diferent name, maybe City guard - add the buddies who randomly walk around, respawn if killed, and do same thing that do creeps to defend theyr lair ( in this case castle )

Restless guard - would be the one that would increase attack speed of turrets/trebuchets ( they could get small reskin, like walls get after upgraded, soo its related to stone ).

the City Guard would be fortress upgrade, Restless guard + Gate of Kings/Endurance ( kings - becouse, if you watch the movie, there were statues of kings implemented to the outside of the gate - the scene where faramir half dead, " came " to city and mordor army was near the walls ), are two upgrade for the stonework, if we get one more - maybe something that decreases the price of buildings by 20%, we would have 3 upgrades for the Stonework, and with that the building could be added to the game again

[Fyro11]

Yeh that seems excellent- good thinking man. I can't remember the part from the movie but I definitely take your word for it, so Gate of Kings it is.

Few things:

- I think decreasing building prices is too much of an imbalance.

- For the final upgrade for the Stoneworker, we could have, hmmm, a HP increase for the towers and treb rampart (not treb itself), just where the treb stands. Imo the pults and rams obliterate them in seconds, so there's no point building them in the first place if not enough HP. Just a 25-50% increase, whatever RJ thinks.

- For the City Guard, I think we should call it as simple as 'On Guard', that seems sweet. Or if you guys disagree, then we could have City Guards, or Vigil Guards. This upgrade should be an early game one, so it should be cheap. Later on, they will become more and more useless for the enemy comes with bigger armies late game.

With this, we need archers on the walls as well imo, around 10, that walk around and if they see an enemy, they all begin to fire on him. This is just an optional extra, cos you could still have normal archers on the walls. I guess it would just look quite sweet and slick if we had them walking like they are patrolling. Btw, would making them walk (rather than run) be difficult to code? I hope not, lol. The patrol archers and soldiers could be upgraded with the Fire Arrows upgrade from the castle, but this would be late game after Númenorian Walls like it is right now.

I think this City/Vigil Guards upgrade shouldn't be difficult as the coding to the creep lairs can be checked out as Myrdin said. Also The Battle for Númenor mod uses it as well like tylerman said.

Is the above ok?

[tylerman29]

ye i would like to see some form of patroling units on walls would be cool but theres more important things to be done.but would be very nice to have it sometime in a later release.

[Fyro11]

Hello,
Fist, I would like to say this mod is great! I am a huge fan of Gondor and I love the knights of Dol Amroth.
I'm sorry if this has been suggested before,but I would love to see Gondor dividided in two subfactions (just like MotE): Southern Fiefdoms (with all the units you can already recruit from the inn) and Northern Fiefdoms (Minas Tirith and Ithilen)
I have thought of one Southern Fiefdoms hero: Prince Imrahil. I can't think of anyone else in the moment but I don't consider that a major problem.
About the buildings, I don't know ANYTHING about modding,but I have seen a map of Dol Amroth that uses many buildings. Maybe you could ask for permission to use them? This is the link: http://mevault.ign.c...h...etail&id=53
I would really love to be able to use Souther Fiefdoms as a separate subfaction!!

Hello there!

I think each faction has like minimum of 6, 7 heroes. One won't do it lol. I haven't really thought over your suggestion but it is a HUUUGE undertaking as I'm sure the team will say.

[Devon]

Imrahil is already a hero for Gondor.

Southern Fiefdoms is already an inn faction.

Gondor will get a muster the fiefdoms power, probably 15pp.

So...they probably won't be in the same faction.

[Myrdin]

Imrahil is already a hero for Gondor.

yeh, and a sucky one too

Southern Fiefdoms is already an inn faction.

yeh, and i love her much, after you buy your Royal Knights ( or whats the name ) HA, and FB they COMPLETLY change skin and become awasome storng ( love it Love it LOVE IT )

Gondor will get a muster the fiefdoms power, probably 15pp.

coool !!!

So...they probably won't be in the same faction.

though i d like to see G. minifactioned ( ithiline, minihiriath, and southern fiefdoms ), i think it still works fine and looks good

Edited by Myrdin, 07 May 2008 - 06:16 PM.