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#1 robnkarla

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 02:30 AM

Add any suggestions and/or bugs for Mordor in here. I want to seperate the factions for discussion.

Bugs:
- Witchking gains Level 10 power at level 2
Fixed - Hounds are too powerful, cost 0 CP, and cost too little.
Fixed - Black Uruks available at level 1 pit
- On one of the BFME1 maps, Mordor's AI did not work
- Check - how many orcs should it take to take down a Warg Lair?
- Sieigework commandsets on BFME1 maps need to include upgrades.

Suggestions:
- Witchking uses normal model up till level # (Suggested 5) - or maybe when respawned
- Nazgul should revive faster/level faster (They level faster and will look into revives)
- More variety to the orcs (without mirroring other factions)
- Mordor Pikemen should be more than a reskinned Uruk Pikmen
- Akhoarakil and Ren's powers are not available on horseback (Should it stay this way, or at lteast a note to tell the player this is the case?)
- Trolls vs. knockback on heroes? Chance to resisst?
- Add Morgul Orcs to Mordor in some fashion
- Orc Heroes (Weaker heroes)

Edited by robnkarla, 15 July 2007 - 11:38 AM.


#2 fehik

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 02:38 PM

Well, the Witchking gains the lightning strike at lvl2 instead of 10. On Dunharrow, (i tried only this out)
the Mordor AI does not build produiction structures.
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#3 robnkarla

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 03:38 PM

Well, the Witchking gains the lightning strike at lvl2 instead of 10. On Dunharrow, (i tried only this out)
the Mordor AI does not build produiction structures.


Oops. I think I left my testing stuff in for the witchking... I'll fix this. As for the production structures, is it just Modor on Dunharrow? I'll fix.

#4 Zyzzyva

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 12:23 AM

Two things: One, the Dark hounds seem way too powerful. They are lvl 2 hound pit, but they cost only 250 and are super powerful. I overwhelmed a medium goblin base with about 3-5 hordes plus a low level wraith, a black orc horde, and a deathbringer, in relatively short time, and the orcs and deathbringer only killed a gobo cave (no units either). They have an amazing attack, and have quite a bit of health too. Other thing, the deathbringers are available at a lvl one orc pit

Edited by Zyzzyva, 01 July 2007 - 12:26 AM.

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Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
-Gandalf

#5 robnkarla

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 03:11 AM

Two things: One, the Dark hounds seem way too powerful. They are lvl 2 hound pit, but they cost only 250 and are super powerful. I overwhelmed a medium goblin base with about 3-5 hordes plus a low level wraith, a black orc horde, and a deathbringer, in relatively short time, and the orcs and deathbringer only killed a gobo cave (no units either). They have an amazing attack, and have quite a bit of health too. Other thing, the deathbringers are available at a lvl one orc pit


I will increase their cost and correct this. The units were originally designed for a level 10 summon for 1 horde by a nazgul. Their power needs to be adjusted as well as their cost. Look for this in the next release.

#6 Captain Gimli

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Posted 01 July 2007 - 11:08 PM

Well mordors ai only built slaughter houses in the map my brother played(BFME1 STYLE MAP)
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#7 Dalf32

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 12:18 AM

yea, the dark hounds dont tak up any cp, they dont gain any leadership bonuses, and they dont hav lvls. ther really good tho! lol
Durzolog's troll crush power dosnt crush any units, at least not wen i tried it.
after the second tim the nazgul die, they cost money again. but the fellbeast system works beautifully!

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#8 Devon

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 07:44 PM

just a small suggestion, have wk use normal nazgul model and skin until level five, when he gets his current one.

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#9 robnkarla

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 07:53 PM

I was thinking something along those lines... When you first bought him I'd have him exactly similar to the other nazguls, but when he is killed he respawns in the witchking form without having to purchase the fellbeast and has a higher respawn cost. So he is the same cost as the others, maybe a little more, when you first purchase him, but the first respawn cost would be a few 1000s higher.

Just a thought. I just am not sure I want to do the modelconditionstate programming to have 2 condition states in each of the objects. This will be in a future update.

#10 Zyzzyva

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 11:54 AM

I dont know what other peoples thoughts are, but I think the nazgul need to revive faster, and level a bit faster. Despite using every Nazgul, in one game I played I only got each nazgul out 1-2, and the highest leveled one was almost lvl 6 (and this was a good lengthed game against a hard elves). Seeeing as archers and pikemen take them out quite easily, it would be nice if they were around more than about 1/5 of the game. Getting a fellbeast is really hard, and only happens very late game.

One other thing I noticed was that the Nazguls Akhoarakil and Ren the Unclean cant use their lvl ten powers unless they have died. If they still have their horse there is a black spot where their lvl 10 power should go.

EDIT: One suggestion I forgot to mention was that I think it would be nice to give more differnet types of orcs to Mordor. Maybe give them 3 lvls of melee orcs, 2 types of archer orcs, a building killing orc group, a specalist orc group, etc. Otherwise for me, Mordor feels like a combination of Goblins (weak, low cost troups, not many stronger melee troops, and BIG monsters for late game) and Isengard (cavalry) with some different heros. One laast thing, I was wondering what the future for goblin and mordor pikemen are, sice right now, as a work in progress, they are just reskined uruk pikemen.

Edited by Zyzzyva, 08 July 2007 - 12:02 PM.

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Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
-Gandalf

#11 Devon

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 04:47 PM

lol....give mordor elite orcs and archers to make them fit in identically with every other faction? no thanks ;).



i like mordor the way the are, and there are differences from goblins. eg, goblins build faster and are weaker than orcs, but they have poison damage and tunnels (which isnt much use in rj maps) and monsters, while mordors siege is more depended upon machines.

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#12 Zyzzyva

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 05:14 PM

I know what your saying, but that isnt really what I was talking about. I was just listing things that could be done. What I was trying to point out was that for a faction that completely depended on foot warriors most of the time, they have very little infantry depth. I would think it would neat and original to add things like a speicalist orc horde that was terrible against units but could do good damage against buildings, or maybe a small range troop that was good against, i dont know, pikemen. Not enough range to make them like archers, but just enough to make them be able to take down some units before infantry can reach them. I agree that just making it like other factions would be boring, and it would go completely against what I was trying to say. With the 3 groups of infantry, one could be orcs, one black orcs, and maybe a very expensive, but gigantic troop. You could call it, for example , an orc legion. It would be the oposite of the Isengard Beserker. These are just a few things you could do. All I was really trying to say was that it was weird for what was, in the books and the movies, a soldier faction, to be unable to win with soldiers! You have to build trolls or siege to win as Mordor, without going Isengard and getting elite fully upgraded troops. Most of Mordor's attacks in the books relied on overwhellming infantry forces (the black gate, osgiliath). I just think that without the evil men part of the faction, they have lost a lot of infantry depth, and I think it would be cool to make them as diverse as Evil Men is becoming.

PS: I completely agree that mordor is not exatctly like goblins, but what I was trying to say was it is almost becoming a sort of faction with recycled bits of other factions. Goblin Infantry and Monsters + Isengard Cavalry and Siege + Unique Heros = Mordor. This is not exatcly true, Mordor does have original bits (drummer troll, attack troll), but the similarities where what I was trying to point out

Edited by Zyzzyva, 08 July 2007 - 05:19 PM.

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Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
-Gandalf

#13 Devon

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Posted 08 July 2007 - 05:58 PM

well, if we wanted to make a mordor true to the books/movies, we'd have some super heros with trolls and catapults and orcs. But we'd have thousands and thousands of orcs, which you cant really do in a game xD.

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#14 mr_g

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 09:50 AM

I want the Nine please
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#15 Allathar

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 11:50 AM

Nope, there won't be nine, since 2 Nazgul were moved to Evil Men.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#16 Xingdao Fan

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 01:38 PM

I don't think that should happen. The Nine Wraiths answer to Sauron alone.
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#17 robnkarla

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 04:58 PM

For now they are with Evil Men. I might be persuaded to change them, but I added them to Evil Men for a couple of reasons. First, they do not answer to Rhun or Harad, but instead the opposite. I view them as the commanders in charge of the two armies. Khamul for the Easterlings/Rhun and Indur for the Haradrim/Harad. While the nine would be great to have all in one faction, it can be overkill in my opinion, and it seems logical to me to have some in the other faction.

The question could be asked why they are not in Isengard or Goblins, but I do not believe they fit their compared to other areas. I don't believe Saruman would take orders directly from Nazguls, though Sauron might use them to keep an eye on Saruman. Also, it is my belief that Saruman was not a specific ally to Mordor, but more using Mordor/Sauron until he could find the ring for himself and overthrown Sauron. He took assesment of the situation, and as an Istari he was always planning to overthrow Sauron, but he wanted to place himself in Sauron's seat. The goblins/wild, I don't thing they fit there either for a number of reasons.

So all that being said, I want 2 Nazgul for Evil Men, 1 that comes on a fellbeast and the other on horseback. I'm trying to limit hero duplication, so I removed them from Mordor. I'm still open to almost any change as long as I agree with it, but that is how it stands now.

As for the orcs, I am looking into what I'd like to do. I have some ideas (one being the ability to build an orc tent to produce the black uruks and other units once you have a level 3 orc pit.) I just want to make sure that whatever I do, at any point it the game you have a reason to put each unit in play.

#18 Allathar

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 05:26 PM

You're true about the thing why a nazgul would better not be used in Isengard faction.

As you said, Saruman wasn't a loyal puppet to Sauron as portraited in the movies, but he wanted to get the ring himself and defeat Sauron with it. That's why he lied to the Nazgul about the location of the Shire, because Sauron didn't know where it was, and Saruman wanted the ring for himself of course. Another reason is after the capturing of the two Hobbits who had the ring (so Sauron and Saruman thought), there was a Nazgul awaiting for the prisoners (as Grishnakh told to Uglúk in the third book), but Uglúk ignored Sauron's orders and did what Saruman told to him: deliver the prisoners alive and unspoiled.

So, it would be better to not have a Nazgul in Isengard.

The Goblins/Wild wouldn't suit either, since the Nazgul were originally the kings of men, therefore they are with Harad and Rhun, which should be that way I think.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#19 Allathar

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 01:21 PM

About the orcs: I agree about being it spammable, weak units, but being a little stronger won't hurt because 10 batallions of orcs of mine were slaughtered by 1 wild warg...
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#20 Zyzzyva

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 08:09 PM

Well, the Witchking gains the lightning strike at lvl2 instead of 10.


Im sure you know this, but just as a reminder, Witch King still gets lightning at lvl 2, and Akhorakil and Ren still can't use their lvl 10 powers until they have died. Also, I know you said you adapted the power of the hounds vs buildings, but they are still a bargin to get a awsome unit killer for only 250/horde (even with having to spend 1100 on building/building upgrade)

One thing I have disliked for a while is troll knockback. Trolls (cave or mountain) can knockback anything with their rocks. While this is a good element and makes trolls more dangerous, it also makes it almost impossible for a once hit hero to escape. Every time they get up, they get knocked right back down, and so on and so forth. While others may think this is a good thing, and I can accept that, I would like to point out that Mountain giants and heros with knockback do not affect other heros. So why trolls? Basically an orc horde (FREE) to draw him in, and a mountain troll (500) to keep knocking him down, can kill any melee hero, from Lurtz, to Azog, to Aragorn. Even Lurtz or Faramir using his bow can sometimes be caught by this. Just my point of view.

Other than this, so far, so good! :p
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Despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
-Gandalf




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