769 replies to this topic

[dojob]

Uh... I think you're getting the Morannon Orcs confused with the orcs from the S.E.E mod.
Just giving them higher prices and slightly higher stats is just plain boring, please excuse me. The Morannon Orcs should be more individual (*glares at Mike* No, I'm not insisting or saying that you must, I'm making a suggestion. You misunderstand me). Which is why they need some kind of individual trait, like being counter-infantry but weak against pikes and cavalry.

Having Mordor units come in groups of fives completely goes against everything that symbolizes Mordor. Just, ugh.
Otherwise, that's basically what I said. Faster than ordinary Orc spam archers, and do very good damage against almost all units except siege and buildings. Very weak when confronted hand-to-hand. If you also gave them the ability to stealth in trees, they'd be the ideal ambush unit. But because of the cost, for ordinary attacks you'd use basic archers, maybe upgraded with F.A. Giving Trackers poison arrows would also enhance their assassin-like aspect, shooting heroes and monsters and then retreating to the safety of the trees while their targets weaken from the poison.
And Trackers, well, you could say that they can only get trained at a Lvl. 3 Orc Pit / Uruk Tent, which means they'll have to be more late game and you won't be able to spam them. Maybe increase the build times, too.
This could be one hell of a cool unit, guys.

I don't play SEE, so that's impossible ;D In my version, there are normal orc warriors, morgul orcs, and black orcs; iirc morannon orcs are to be moved to the inn.

They don't need stealth very much imo (since it's much easier and more practical to just spam free orcs than to bother with ambushing, but I wouldn't really be opposed to them having the option if u really insist), and the few numbers would make them seem more like scouts and not simply better archers. If hordes of 5 are too small, then hordes of ten may be better.

[Zyzzyva]

I thought I must be misremebering, so I went to play Mordor again, but I'm pretty sure Morannon Orcs do have knockback. (at least in the BETA)

I really liked dojob's idea of upgrading orcs. My slightly varied idea would be:

Orc Pit:
-Orcs (Level One)
-Orc Archers (Level One)
-Orc Pikemen (Level Two)
-Upgrade to Morgul - change to Morgul orc skin, slight boost is stats, maybe cost 1000 - 2000 (Level Two)
-Upgrade to "Black Orcs" - better name? changes to Black orc skin, upgrades stats a bit more, enables forged blades and heavy armour to be purchased (Level Three) 2000 - 3000

Orc Tent:
-Morannon Orcs (Level One) - Stronger armor and health than Morgul orcs but not much more powerful, with chance of knockback
-Orc Trackers (Level One) - fast archers
Level Two?
-Hero Horde if we are leaving them in (Level Three)

I realise there is a bit of a hole in the Orc Tent but I'm running out of ideas for orcs

For the hero horde I would make them Captains of Mordor:
This is where I would put snaga-like units, rather than having them as heros.
They would each have one power, and be a very strong orc that can kill units easily, but that struggles against heros
You reseave a random mini hero, to a max of 3. Obviously numbers are limited by which you already have
1 Shagrat - the corruption power or something similar (he came as close to being smart as an orc can), strong attack and armour but low health
2 Gorbag - some attack booster, a tank with high armour and health but not as good as the others at attack
3 Grishnak - summon 2 hordes of orcs, similar to Shagrat but maybe with more health and less armour, or faster

The one problem with this is they would be more helpful early game than late, which is when hero hordes are availible. Of course, these also might make good inn heros if hero hordes are removed or if others are in favour of a strong orc hero horde and keeping snaga.

Anyways thats my idea. Rebuttal time

Edited by Zyzzyva, 06 December 2008 - 01:28 PM.

[dojob]

I thought I must be misremebering, so I went to play Mordor again, but I'm pretty sure Morannon Orcs do have knockback. (at least in the BETA)

I really liked dojob's idea of upgrading orcs. My slightly varied idea would be:

Orc Pit:
-Orcs (Level One)
-Orc Archers (Level One)
-Orc Pikemen (Level Two)
-Upgrade to Morgul - change to Morgul orc skin, slight boost is stats, maybe cost 1000 - 2000 (Level Two)
-Upgrade to "Black Orcs" - better name? changes to Black orc skin, upgrades stats a bit more, enables forged blades and heavy armour to be purchased (Level Three) 2000 - 3000

Orc Tent:
-Morannon Orcs (Level One) - Stronger armor and health than Morgul orcs but not much more powerful, with chance of knockback
-Orc Trackers (Level One) - fast archers
Level Two?
-Hero Horde if we are leaving them in (Level Three)

I realise there is a bit of a hole in the Orc Tent but I'm running out of ideas for orcs

For the hero horde I would make them Captains of Mordor:
This is where I would put snaga-like units, rather than having them as heros.
They would each have one power, and be a very strong orc that can kill units easily, but that struggles against heros
You reseave a random mini hero, to a max of 3. Obviously numbers are limited by which you already have
1 Shagrat - the corruption power or something similar (he came as close to being smart as an orc can), strong attack and armour but low health
2 Gorbag - some attack booster, a tank with high armour and health but not as good as the others at attack
3 Grishnak - summon 2 hordes of orcs, similar to Shagrat but maybe with more health and less armour, or faster

The one problem with this is they would be more helpful early game than late, which is when hero hordes are availible. Of course, these also might make good inn heros if hero hordes are removed or if others are in favour of a strong orc hero horde and keeping snaga.

Anyways thats my idea. Rebuttal time

Everything is good except I'd rather have "snaga" heroes as simply cheap early heroes and keep uruks as the mhh

[{IRS}Athos]

I don't know; I like Zyzzyva's idea... it sounds pretty cool.

[Hasfusel]

I agree with Dojob. Recruiting heroes from buildings doesn't really work, and I'd rather just keep Shagrat, Gorbag and Grish'nakh as early game leaders.
Although I still think that Morannon Orcs and Trackers should be more unique than just slightly stronger units. Morannon Orcs would be real cool if they were counter-infantry, because Mordor has everything else, and Trackers would make great ambush units, especially when doubled with stealthing in trees and poison damage. It wouldn't damage Mordor's individuality but increase it and the detail in it. Besides, the whole point is that you spam Orc Pit units and keep the Uruk Tent units for the harder stuff. So yes, Trackers could be in smaller numbers, but not fives. Ten is more reasonable.
And pricing Orc hordes at 2000 - 3000 each? I hope I misunderstood there.

Edited by Hasfusel, 06 December 2008 - 06:01 PM.

[dojob]

I'm assuming the 2000-3000 resources would be spent on an upgrade that makes all orcs made from the pit that got upgraded into black orcs

[{IP} Aridor]

Lore wise the Orc Trackers could have a weak stealth. They would be the orcs that ambushed the Fellowship at the rapids.

[shadowcreature]

I don't know about orcs being stealthy. Is it really possible?

Morannon orcs do have knockback in the current public beta. It just doesn't happen everytime they attack.

I partly like Zyzzyva's idea, are these upgrades meant to enable training the higher tier orcs or replace? Orc Trackers imo should require a level two Black Uruk tent for training. I'm not so sure about the cost and level position for Morgul orcs. But these are still WIP's after all.

[Zyzzyva]

I'm assuming the 2000-3000 resources would be spent on an upgrade that makes all orcs made from the pit that got upgraded into black orcs

Ya I meant those upgrades to be for replacing Mordor orcs as the avalible free orcs

[shadowcreature]

I don't know if that could be implemented, sounds like extra coding to me.

[Devon]

Easily done


I'm only slightly worried by the cost of all this. With Mordor's powerhouse econ, it would take no time to get that upgrade. Then 5-10 pits of free buffed orcs?

Edited by Yoda_, 07 December 2008 - 04:45 AM.

[{IP} Aridor]

Orcs could be stealthy. They slipped up on the fourteen in the hobbit. They can be stealthy when needed. They just don't usually. Granted they would be no where near as stealthy as a human and not even in the same galaxy as the elves but still they could set a decent ambush.

[Devon]

Those were goblins underground, and the companions were asleep. Doesn't take much stealth to do that

[{IP} Aridor]

Your are thinking of another part. Later when they are escaping the goblins slip up on them and jump Dwalin. He drops Bilbo and Bilbo gets knocked out. Then as they rush to flee they forget Bilbo and leave him behind. This is what leads Bilbo to wander into the depths of the tunnels and stumble onto the Ring. So if it wasn't for an orc being stealthy the ring would never have fallen into the crack of doom. I think in fact that it is written in there that when needed an orc could move very quietly.

[Dalf32]

now the question arises as to how we would give them stealth without having it be jsut as good as that of the rangers or elves. how do we increment stealth abilities?

[Hasfusel]

Just stealthing in trees, and being revealed when they fire (not like Thranduil, for instance). Maybe they could have a higher chance of being detected, if possible.
If it was possible to code, you could make it so that if they recieve Fire Arrows they loose their stealth. But I'd rather they have Poison Arrows anyway, so...

[dojob]

Yoda: Perhaps once the upgrades that make ur pits train better orcs are purchased (and this would be per pit), the orcs got a price increase?

As for trackers, meh, give them stealth in trees. We talked about a better stealth system in another topic and I think it would be great if rangers and elves could be able to toggle to a sort of "stealth" stance in which they moved faster, were always stealthed when still, could only be detected by detectors, and couldn't attack. Trackers wouldn't have that stance but would be stealthed in trees and could be seen by any unit that gets close enough. I think we can all agree that we just want them to be light ambush units and somewhat better archers than orcs, but I don't think they should take the role of orc archers once they're available; once trackers are available, then u should still be spamming basic archers if u need archers and use trackers for scouting and hit-and-run sniping.

[Hasfusel]

Yeah; you still use general archers for most stuff, but you use trackers as special ambush units, especially if you can upgrade them with poison arrows. They could be used for sniping at the enemy's tough units, then running away until the enemy have weakened and close in for the kill.

[dojob]

Pretty much.

[{IRS}Athos]

I have a major complaint to make about Mordor's catapults: the rocks bounce, have more AoE than trebuchets/ballistae, and burn, all for a low low price. I've had a Medium army holding me at bay for the past two days with a basic cata/meat shield strategy just because of that. It's starting to annoy me... Is it going to be any different in the next beta?