769 replies to this topic

[Dalf32]

you're definitely losing it because its more like 4-5 times

[RobnKarlaFAN]

you're definitely losing it because its more like 4-5 times

nobody is losing it..i am just new to this forum..sorry for overloading the forums

[mike_]

You're not

[RobnKarlaFAN]

You're not

just kidding ..so what do you think about my suggestion?

[mike_]

I think it's easily doable but not horribly necessary.

[Hasfusel]

I like it, the Witch King should be taller, but it's not that actually that pressing. Especially not pressing enough to post it about seven times in random topics.
It would really be cool if orc archers could fire out of siege towers when garrisoned. Enough said. And siege towers could have a Torches upgrade which allows archers inside to fire using flaming arrows while garrisoned, and another upgrade that increases armor, or something. This is a great point for development, because in the vanilla game these towers had barely any frickin' use, since it's so much easier to just bash down the gates or scale the walls with ladders.
Give Siege Towers a garrison ability allowing them to shelter archers as well, and that's another story...

Another point for Mordor is the orcs. Mordor now has dozens of orcs, including:

-Orcs
-Orc Archers
-Black Orcs (upgradeable, a bit stronger)
-Orc Trackers (elite archers)
-Morrannon Orcs (elite orcs)

and God knows what.
But they aren't actually that individual. In the end of the day, it doesn't make too much of a difference which you use because they're all so similar.
I reckon they need to be further developed. Customise their abilities to be a bit more unique. Maybe give the Morannon Orcs knockback, or make them handy against buildings, or make enemies fear them when they reach Lvl. 8 or are in great numbers. Maybe give the Trackers a Haste ability to temporarily increase speed and damage, or something to give temporary stealth detect (they are called Trackers, after all). Maybe make the Black Orcs good against other swordsmen and archers, but slow and weak against pikes which would be a unique trait in infantry.
There are so many possibilities to make orc hordes more unique, and to give more strategy to mixing hordes. It'd be a real shame if you just left it how it is.

Edited by Hasfusel, 01 December 2008 - 01:07 PM.

[Dalf32]

the plan originally was to flesh out the mordor orc system more than it is now, but it, not to mention many other things, got put on the back-burner for a while due to reasons im sure we're all well aware of by now.
i figure now is as good a time as any to work out some ideas to help give each of the orc units a more decisive role in the faction though. i believe the trackers are intended to be a swifter form on the standard orc archer, so a haste ability may work out. i dont really think we should just start giving them powers and whatnot since that would make them more akin to hero-hordes than standard units which is not a direction i think we want to go with them.

[Scryer]

If Orc Trackers are going to be about speed, would it completely off-set the balance system of Mordor if we gave the other archers a H.A upgrade-capability (<grammar)? It still bugs me a little that Mordor has two archers and both of them don't have the ability to be upgraded with H.A. But this is just me, guys.

Now for the siege towers.

It would really be cool if orc archers could fire out of siege towers when garrisoned.

I don't think that this is needed. I don't mean to open a "can of reality" here but the only way that I see this working with a realistic finesse is if the archers could only shoot from the opened end of the siege tower. Sure they might be able to shoot through the cracks and stuff to get units in front of the siege tower, but then it would look kind of rediculous. Besides, I really don't like making the siege towers anything more than their current purpose. Although I will try to be open to new ideas.

Enough said. And siege towers could have a Torches upgrade which allows archers inside to fire using flaming arrows while garrisoned, and another upgrade that increases armor, or something.

Like I said before, I don't like having the Siege Towers serve more of a purpose than they currently do. I'm sure that when you were making this suggestion, you were thinking of Minas Tirith (and who can blame you ? It's the most friggin' anticipated battle!!). Other fortress maps, usually don't need siege towers (or ladders, for that matter) to get a decent breach. Look at Dol Amroth (which can be found in the LWM thread...), technically you can do your entire siege by water.

And as for RJ maps, the walls on those camps are pretty brittle at the moment, so in my opinion it would be a waste of time to climb the walls when you can just blast through them. My point is that it is so rare to see a siege tower or a ladder used in regular maps. So this idea (to me) would be a useless talent for a siege tower.

This is a great point for development, because in the vanilla game these towers had barely any frickin' use, since it's so much easier to just bash down the gates or scale the walls with ladders.
Give Siege Towers a garrison ability allowing them to shelter archers as well, and that's another story...

Giving the towers extra perks is not going to inspire anyone to start using them on regular maps. And on fortress maps, I think that the only thing that needs to be done with them is to give them an ability to carry 1 battalion of units. I strongly believe in that idea because it raises the stakes for both the defender and the assaulter. And that is all I feel that these towers really need.

Other than that, keep those ideas comming!!

[Hasfusel]

But, the whole point is that it gives them more of a purpose! Think of it as a large, moblie tower that can fire arrows while being incredibly tough and resistant to fire, while allowing you to move soldiers to the top of walls without getting them killed beforehand. It's the whole point of siege towers in general.
It would be a very nice feature to include. Towers could be upgraded with Heavy Armor to make them last longer, a Torches upgrade like I said or an Orc Medicine upgrade to heal the units garrisoned. Maybe, it could even be possible to adapt the model to fit a battering ram on the bottom, although this is of course just wishful thinking.
The siege tower could become a great aspect of the Mordor siege range, with a little work and imagination. It would also give a little more use to Trebuchets, Catapults and Ents attatched to walls of fortresses and RJ fortresses, because they would be very effective against these massive, lumbering towers, which are slow and weak against other siege.
But, ah well, if it's a no it's a no. Just thought it would be a nice feature to implement.

On the subject of the orcs, they really do need more individuality. The Orc Archers are just ordinary orc rabble with range. Orc Trackers should be something a bit more special, with longer range, a little better speed, and perhaps even stealthing in trees, or detect stealth. Or both. They are called "Trackers", after all. Like Mordor Rangers. As for heavy armor, I agree that it's sad that Mordor archers don't have heavy armor as an upgrade, but the whole point is that almost all Mordor units have light armor but good numbers and attack. So, this is where the siege towers come in again, to give protection to the archers.
As for the other orcs... Ordinary Orcs (maybe could be distinguished by being renamed to Orc Rabble, because that's basically what they are) are fine. They're weak, but they come in large numbers, allowing them to swamp the enemy, giving the Trolls and orc archers plenty of time to dominate the battlefield. This is the basic Mordor strategy.
Black Orcs, who were added to the RotWK expansion, are slightly stronger, and can be upgraded with Heavy Armor and Forged Blades. They're useful to turn the tide of a melée, and also for guarding or attacking camps and locations. They're more or less fine how they are.
Morannon Orcs... I'm not too sure what you want to do with them. Maybe they could be stronger against buildings, or they could be extra tough and do knockback. Mordor is a very interesting and certainly the most versatile faction - there are plenty of opportunities

[Dalf32]

i dont htink the trackers should get stealth because i dont see mordor as using any sort of finesse whatsoever, nor would they take the time to try.
i also dont think that any of the basic orc units (basic archers and orcs, perhaps also trackers and morannon orcs) should have heavy armor. this is because i see mordor as a faction that couldnt care less about retaining units and would much rather to simply overwhelm the enemy with meat-shields. also why i dont htink mordor should ever have a healing power, be it passive or whatever else. only the elite orcs would have heavy armor options because they would be used not as the main overwhelming force, but as a smaller group whose job it is to clean up the tougher foes--they would be preserved a bit better (hence the heavy armor).

i dont like the thought of adding the archer fire from siege towers because i think it gives them a bit too much functionality. it basically makes it a walking arrow tower and no one would ever use it for anything but beefing up their archers. i wasnt aware that siege towers were even in skirmish mode though heh, i dont ever use the siege works anyways though because i jsut throw a bunch of trolls out instead

[Scryer]

Gonna agree with you on everything Dalf. Even the archers getting H.A. I don't actually care that much about that anyways, just buy more archers . You might be right about the Siege Towers not being available in Skirmish... I mena, the walls aren't even walkable in ROTWK/BFME2.

[Hasfusel]

What about the specialized orcs? You can't just keep them the same, it's boring. They need something to distinguish them.
As I said, the Black Orcs are the crack squad who get Heavy Armor and Forged Blades, to move in late in the game to finish everyone off, or to take out heroes. The Morannon Orcs need something special, like knockback or increased damage against other swordsmen.
The Trackers need something to allow them to live up to their name. If you think Mordor shouldn't have them, you shouldn't have added them in the first place.

[mike_]

Mate.. dunno if I've said this or not, but I'll say it now/again for the last time. You can't go around saying "this should be done" or "this needs to happen". It's very rude and annoying. Some people (read: myself ) do not appreciate it and will get ugly about it.

So, please reconsider what goes into a post before hitting the button. Please.

Anyway.. I think Mordor's pretty low on the totem pole at the moment. The focus is on the Elves, Linear Campaign, and Ring/Hero System. Other things, like refining the new factions and fine-tuning existing ones (such as Mordor) come later in the process.

[Dalf32]

when did anyone say they didnt want the trackers in? and i suggest(ed) that we simply make them swifter than the other orc archers, probably both in movement and in firing rate.

agreed that the morannon orcs need a more specific role and some sort of distinguishing feature but i dont have any ideas atm. if anyone else does, please...

[Scryer]

I posted before that Morannon Orcs could get speed/vision buffs and have weakish armour... It was dismissed for good reason but maybe we should start there for a good idea?

[Hasfusel]

That doesn't give them much individuality or too much of a particular purpose, especially when you have the Eye of Sauron...

I think they should each have something more unique. You don't need finesse to be stealthy; Trackers can just be swift, powerful Orc Archers who can stealth/have a detect stealth power, and maybe a poison arrows upgrade, which in any case is less common than Fire Arrows, and wouldn't give away position.
Morannon Orcs, well, they need a more definitive purpose. Mordor already has building smashers (battering rams and Trolls), Orc Pikemen (I think) to counter cavalry, Orc Archers and Rabble to counter pikemen, Black Orcs to deal with tough units... What it needs is an all-purpose infantry fighting unit. Morannon Orcs can be stronger, slightly faster, and do splash damage or knockback. Rather than being counter-pikemen, they can be the unique infantry that counters other infantry. Of course, they'd be more vunerable to Pikemen and Cavalry, but strong versus swordsmen and and resistant against archers, while also being fast. Perfect.

Edited by Hasfusel, 04 December 2008 - 01:49 PM.

[Pasidon]

Problem with a super-dupper unit for Mordor is that they might loose their built in function: to spam the brains out of everyone. Why build all thouse annoying hoards if you can build one annoying hoard equal to them, just like every other faction.

[dojob]

I think Morgul Orcs (I think that's what ur calling morannon orcs as i can't remember any morannon orcs) should be removed as a unit and perhaps you can upgrade ur pits to make Morgul orc warriors and archers instead of basic ones which would have the same price but be just a bit better. Or perhaps Black Orcs could be replaced in name and looks (but no other characteristics, like stats) by Morgul ones.

As for trackers, they should be like snipers, but not as good; they'd come in hordes of 5, be faster and a bit more armored than orc archers, have much better range, do more damage, would have a slightly lower rate of fire, and would be unable to get FAs. This would make them very good as support units for scouting and maybe attacking heroes and small hordes of elites (especially at hit-and-run, which basic archers are way too slow to do), but because of an inability to get FAs and their low numbers, ur basic spam archers would be ur main archers, maintaining Mordor's emphasis on spam.

[Hasfusel]

Uh... I think you're getting the Morannon Orcs confused with the orcs from the S.E.E mod.
Just giving them higher prices and slightly higher stats is just plain boring, please excuse me. The Morannon Orcs should be more individual (*glares at Mike* No, I'm not insisting or saying that you must, I'm making a suggestion. You misunderstand me). Which is why they need some kind of individual trait, like being counter-infantry but weak against pikes and cavalry.

Having Mordor units come in groups of fives completely goes against everything that symbolizes Mordor. Just, ugh.
Otherwise, that's basically what I said. Faster than ordinary Orc spam archers, and do very good damage against almost all units except siege and buildings. Very weak when confronted hand-to-hand. If you also gave them the ability to stealth in trees, they'd be the ideal ambush unit. But because of the cost, for ordinary attacks you'd use basic archers, maybe upgraded with F.A. Giving Trackers poison arrows would also enhance their assassin-like aspect, shooting heroes and monsters and then retreating to the safety of the trees while their targets weaken from the poison.
And Trackers, well, you could say that they can only get trained at a Lvl. 3 Orc Pit / Uruk Tent, which means they'll have to be more late game and you won't be able to spam them. Maybe increase the build times, too.
This could be one hell of a cool unit, guys.

[Dalf32]

i still dont think taht any mordor units should be stealthing. it completely changes their role and, for me, it goes against the feeling of mordor; brute force and numbers with no love for advanced tactics. i would rather see them being quite fast and powerful, but being very weak in melee, as you said. i would think that their name denotes their function, so they should be quick enough to chase down most unmounted units (excluding elves mehtinks) and be a good harrassment unit. definitely for later in the game though.