1109 replies to this topic

[Dragonforce]

That Black Numenorian in my tech-tree can be renamed of course. The point why I made it was that I want thrall master things away and keep snow & hill trolls. I completely agree that Angmar should have more creepy units (that's why vampires and werewolf were on my list)

In book it's said that "from Angmar came orcs,men and other evil creatures" (my own translation from Finnish one)
So this leaves much for imagination. Now Angmar is Men+Orcs+Trolls+Wolves(Rhun+Mordor+Mordor+wolves) so it needs
some more unique creatures.
Dragonforce has spoken

EDIT: I would like to have more comments about my tech tree if possible

Edited by Dragonforce, 18 March 2009 - 01:44 PM.

[Silindor-Blue-Wolfrayet]

I think that the two new troll heroes for the Goblins..should be moved to Angmar..a snow troll and a hill troll..aren't suitable for Goblins..well..the hill troll maybe..

[Wanderer∞]

Wow... I leave for one day of fishing and this topic is utter chaos. Somebody let loose some anarchy without letting me know about it...

So hell broke loose, I see (or in the case of Angmar its hell frozen over )
I'd like to try and be a negotiator here for a bit if that's ok especially between Lord Faramir and basically everyone else.

First off, I like all the different tech trees. Although I agree that there are perhaps too many archers/men infantry in Faramir's. However, I DO think that if BN are kept, they should be made into the elite small hero horde for Angmar. It makes sense to me considering BN were so few to begin with. If I may use some of the logic used earlier, (the Tolkien never said... Batman, Guns and such ) In any case, he never said the BN all disappeared except for the WK and company. With that logic, it is possible that some survived and a limited horde amount seems like the best solution to me.

Secondly, I believe that AA's depiction of Angmar captures what it should be like better than anything else I've heard. As Tolkien said about Angmar having men, orcs, and other evil creatures, IMO there should be a somewhat equal balance within the faction between human-like creatures and monsters. Werewolves and vampires and wolves and wights and trolls and whatever else fits in the category of monsters should be placed in Angmar because, even without definite proof of their existence from the lore, they still fit the utter fear and have at-least lived at some point on Middle Earth. The hill trolls should be removed completely because they just don't seem to fit the whole Angmar fear/snow thingy and the snow trolls should be rebuffed to be more powerful and whatnot like someone suggested (I forget who)earlier Men of Carn Durn should be the main "men" unit and there should definitely be some kind of cavalry unit for men. The dark rangers should probably be combined with the BN horde who would have toggle between sword and bow. Thrall masters stay. The orcs, well they should probably just stay the same too. Sorcerers should stay as well, but there should be a limit for the number controlled at once (and they should also have a new skin to fit a darker Angmar). Hero-wise, a BN hero is needed and I actually do like the young Mouth of Sauron idea. Considering he was a sorcerer, he could be easily be a wizard-like hero, with a new skin and new powers from Morder's version of him. After all, Angmar already has two heroes from Mordor already, each changed to fit the time period.

Lastly, and in all honesty, why are we calling out Lord Faramir for being well versed in lore? It's not like Mike and AA and Ithilien and Dojob anyone else I've forgotten (no offense guys ) are the only ones in the world to know a lot about LOTR. In fact there are people who actually major and devote their lives to studying Tolkien. So I think it's only fair that we be a bit more excepting of someone who knows a whole lot more about lore than the rest of us "normal" people

Hope this helps in anyway shape or form!

And next time someone wants to spread anarchy and chaos, please, let me know...
I'm just an agent of chaos... and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair.

-Wanderer∞

Edited by Wanderer∞, 19 March 2009 - 06:25 PM.

[dojob]

Thrall masters need to be kept in this game, and in the faction. The idea of a building made specially for creating barbarian hordes free of a thrall master is not a good one to me.

And I don't have as much of a problem with monsters as I do with monsters taking away from the factions dependence on Men as the backbone of its army. In supporting roles, alright, thats cool. But I don't like the idea of every unit in an army being a troll or a werewolf or something like that.

Yeah I kept the thrall masters, but orcs seem better suited as thrall units than Rhudaurmen imo. That way the system remains and Rhudaurmen can be made deeper by letting me give them upgrades and toggles.

I edited this post because I had some nasty connection issues with FF and for some reason the original post just had the quote...

Edited by dojob, 18 March 2009 - 08:18 PM.

[Wanderer∞]

Shouldn't the freezing rain power be changed to something else like snow/hail/blizzard/ or even darkness seems better for Angmar?

[{IRS}Athos]

Wow, I came in here late, but I'll put in my Lore about Black Numenoreans vs. Vampires being in Angmar... for what it's worth.

After the fall of Angband, the Ered Engrin were broken. Sauron, and many of Morgoth's evil creatures, fled far north into the wilderness of Dor Daidelos. Sauron later moved south to Mirkwood, but it's not entirely unreasonable to assume that most of the vampires, werewolves, etc. stayed up in Sauron's old northern stronghold.

Now, the Black Numenoreans emerged from a cult of the Dunedain that rebelled against the Lords of the West. They were more into dominating the men of Middle-earth than helping them, and since there weren't enough men in the north to brutalize, they moved along the coasts of Harad and Gondor, subjugating people under their fortresses and exacting heavy tribute. By the time Numenor had fallen, there were thousands of Black Numenoreans in the south, mostly in the haven of Umbar. However, the farthest Numenorean haven north was Vinyalonde (or Lond Daer Enedh) which was built by Tar-Aldarion the mariner. Aldarion was before the time of the Black Numenoreans, and although his haven was used once more by Tar-Minastir to land the Navy of Numenor during the War of the Elves and Sauron, Vinyalonde had fallen mostly into ruin by the time of Pharazon. Thus, most (if not all) of the Black Numenoreans who remained in Middle-earth and didn't join the Great Armament would be in the southern regions of Middle-earth. It is unlikely that enough of them to form an army made their way to the north.

After the War of the Last Alliance, it is likely that many of the Black Numenoreans supporting Sauron through the armies of Rhun and Harad were killed off. Although many survived, there weren't enough to form an army. When the Witch-king went north to Angmar, he would have summoned all of the evil creatures that lived in the north. Since they hadn't involved themselves in the wars of the Second Age, there would have been quite a few of them: vampires of Thuringwethil's ilk and werewolves following in the [ig]noble tradition of Draugluin and Carcharoth. In addition, some of the Swarthy Men who escaped the fall of Belariand may have been hanging around the northern remains of the Ered Engrin, in the region near the roots of the Hithaeglir known as Carn Dum. Doubtless, the Witch-king would have recruited them for his evil purposes. Thus, the men of Carn Dum and whatever men of Rhudaur that the Witch-king managed to corrupt would form the backbone of his army, with the monsters joining in to sow fear and despair everywhere they went. He would have been joined by the Hill Trolls of the Ettenmoors (not EA's crappy ones, but more like Bert, Tom, and Bill...) and the orcs of Mount Gundabad, but his army would have been chiefly human.

...the other Loremaster has spoken. That's just my humble interpretation; but I think it's fairly reasonable. Any comments?

[Wanderer∞]

Well there's lots of facts!
So I assume you're saying BN are out and vampires and co. are in?

[{IRS}Athos]

I guess you could say that... Most of the gist of it is that there shouldn't be large numbers of Black Numenoreans; i.e. they should be sharply limited.

[Wanderer∞]

Agreed

[Captain of Arnor]

Like I said, I'll always say that Black Numenoreans deserve some small part in the Witch-Kings army. I do agree, now, that there are too many of them in-game, and that they should be made into a elite unit. Like the Noldor Warriors and the Galadhrim Warriors for the Elves.

The only thing I'm against is turning Angmar back into a zoo faction. I like the idea of hordes of hill men (which is what it was) swarming over everything and everyone. Hill men (and therefore, men, Numenorean or not) were, are, and always should be the true backbone of Angmars army. Weather or not there are werewolves and vampires, the whole army should work around a huge force of men to overwhelm the enemy.

Vampires and Werewolves...once again, my only problem with this is that there is absolutely no proof that they were in Angmar. Wolves, yes. Thats fine. Bats, thats alright as well, God knows there were probably an ass-ton up around Carn-Dum. Someone says prove that they weren't, but thats going completely in the opposite direction. Thats totally moot. Prove that they WERE and I'll concede on this.

I'll say this - its creative, quite. And so long as the army isn't built around vampires and werewolves, rather, they're supporting forces, I'd be 100% with it. Angmar and Arnor are my two favorite factions (I like the lore and history of Middle-earth :D) And I just don't want to see every canon aspect of Angmar get destroyed.

And Wanderer, thanks for taking up for me bro. ~Thumbs up~ Big of you.

[{IRS}Athos]

@ Wanderer: I notice you didn't put me on your "Lore Guy" list...

@ LF: I was merely suggesting that there may have been some vampires. My main point in saying that the Black Numenoreans were in the south was to stop all of the B.N./D.R. army building... In my opinion, they should be a hero-horde similar to the Tower Guards, per this painting by John Howe. My mental image of the werewolves is actually quite similar to Wargs: very powerful wolves that have almost human intelligence (remember The Hobbit?) and unbelievable ferocity (think Draugluin here). As for the vampires, I was thinking that in addition to Thuringwethil there may have been two or three other vampires. Like the Black Numenoreans, their numbers should be steeply limited (two to four hordes apiece) while the "lesser Draugluins" should have a slightly larger limit (perhaps five or six?) and be slightly less powerful. To re-state, I'm not talking the "ZOMG IT'S PROF. LUPIN AND DRACULA!!!" () but a slightly calmer, more rational version of the aforementioned creatures of Lore. Once again, thank you for discussing this rationally (it's a zoo in other places... ) and I want you to know that I really respect that.

Regards, IRS

Edited by ithilienranger732, 19 March 2009 - 01:38 AM.

[mike_]

...my suggestions of Vampires and Were-wolves have always had them as limited support units...

[Captain of Arnor]

Totally, IR732, don't mention it :D. We're nothing but animals if we can't have a debate without fighting and screaming at one another.

I see what you mean, and thats one thing I was worried about - people would see werewolves and vampires and think 'OMG TWILIGHT AND UNDERWORLD? OMG OMG OMG' And that would be the end of me ever playing Angmar again. I enjoy playing Angmar a lot, they're one of my favorite factions (like I've said so many times) and my main worry is them getting all screwed up.

If Vampires and Werewolves were available in both limited numbers and weren't uber-powerful, they could make an interesting addition to Angmars hordes. I still don't think they're canon, personally, Tolkien would've mentioned somewhere a vampire lord or werewolf general somewhere, but maybe I'm wrong. He DID mention a great many things he didn't need to, and left a lot out of things he should have mentioned. But his books are still among the greatest literature ever created in this world, in my eyes, even if for that - he leaves you thinking and lets you come to your own conclusions.

The idea of putting Black Numenoreans in (as an Elite unit, five per unit, total of three units) is a great idea to me. I've came to see the light, Mike, and I'm on your side -- they don't need to be so numerous in Angmar. But I still say, and will say forever, that they do need some type of presence there. Even if it is only fifteen on the field at once.

But those fifteen should kick some royal ass as well. :D Anyways, yeah. This is shaping up to be better than I thought it would. I hate the way Angmar relies on trolls and wolves now, being able to spread it out some among the other units (and adding more units to spread it out among as well) would be a great thing.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 19 March 2009 - 02:19 AM.

[mike_]

Awesome. So I have an entourage now?

[{IP} Aridor]

A vampire is just a really big bat. As a warg is to wolves so a vampire is to bats. The Werewolves on the other hand might be a little more of a stretch. We know Sauron was the master of them during the 1st age, and there were rumors of them in Dol Guldur, but the is in fact no definite proof of them, but putting them would not break lore or be impossible. It then comes down to gameplay and choice. As of right now the consensus of the team and Rob, who really matters, seems to be on putting in Werewolves. There is a model of them that was made and it looks quite nice. I for one am in favor of adding them because they give that little bit extra horror and terror to Angmar. It is hard to really get emotion and style into this game so you have kind of go over the top to get a faction to play the way you want it to. We really want the players to feel like Terror and Treachery are real weapons and your main ones when playing with Angmar, so everything needs to be pushed in that direction. If you could win without even engaging the enemy that would be fan-freaking-tastic. The Vampires would be like the evil spiders in Mirkwood. They are descendants of Shelob who is of the brood of Ungoliat. Now Ungoliat was a pure Maiar, but her brood wasn't and it got less and less so as the ages passed. Now the same would be true of the Vampires. They would be huge blood thirsty monstrous bats that were from the bloodlines of those Maiar. It would be really really cool if when they leveled up enough they got like a swarm of normal bats around them. The current model for the Vampires being worked on looks just like a intelligent monster bat. These like all the monster wouldn't be the main fighting force but they are the Terror inducers. This should be the purpose of the Monsters, to be freaking monstrous. They need to scare the crap out of your troops and make them flee. The wolves and wargs should be weak but they should cause a lot of fear. Even on veteran troops a Vampire would cause terror. The WK won by killing the leaders and dividing his enemies through treachery. Again I say we need to reflect this in gameplay.

[dojob]

Totally, IR732, don't mention it . We're nothing but animals if we can't have a debate without fighting and screaming at one another.

I see what you mean, and thats one thing I was worried about - people would see werewolves and vampires and think 'OMG TWILIGHT AND UNDERWORLD? OMG OMG OMG' And that would be the end of me ever playing Angmar again. I enjoy playing Angmar a lot, they're one of my favorite factions (like I've said so many times) and my main worry is them getting all screwed up.

If Vampires and Werewolves were available in both limited numbers and weren't uber-powerful, they could make an interesting addition to Angmars hordes. I still don't think they're canon, personally, Tolkien would've mentioned somewhere a vampire lord or werewolf general somewhere, but maybe I'm wrong. He DID mention a great many things he didn't need to, and left a lot out of things he should have mentioned. But his books are still among the greatest literature ever created in this world, in my eyes, even if for that - he leaves you thinking and lets you come to your own conclusions.

The idea of putting Black Numenoreans in (as an Elite unit, five per unit, total of three units) is a great idea to me. I've came to see the light, Mike, and I'm on your side -- they don't need to be so numerous in Angmar. But I still say, and will say forever, that they do need some type of presence there. Even if it is only fifteen on the field at once.

But those fifteen should kick some royal ass as well. Anyways, yeah. This is shaping up to be better than I thought it would. I hate the way Angmar relies on trolls and wolves now, being able to spread it out some among the other units (and adding more units to spread it out among as well) would be a great thing.

I have no idea why you're making a big deal over wolves and vampires, it's not like they'll even be widely used even without forcing them to be limited to like 3 vampires at a time or something, which just wouldn't make any sense. Trust me, Angmar won't become a goddam zoo if we just add a few interesting units ;D


And FFS why aren't I on ur lore guy list?!1

Oh and agreed with AA's big wall of text

Edited by dojob, 19 March 2009 - 02:48 AM.

[shadowcreature]

I'm in agreement with the general idea of how Angmar should be for the most part. I do think that men should form part of it's army, but I agree with Uruk King with his idea that Orcs should also be the other backbone part. Black Numenorians serving as Angmar's elite uniy with a toggle I like much, since Angmar doesn't have a MMH to begin with. Personally. I think that the unit's voice set should be the one used for the Mahud Chieftain and the Variags of Khand, so fitting.

[Captain of Arnor]

Well, thats what I've been trying to make sure of, with all this typing and chattering back and forth. I want to avoid Angmar becoming a zoo, because they're just too awesome to destroy like that. Theres too much lore behind them to just hand off to wolves and trolls. I just want 'em to become a more used, better faction, you know?

And the only real treachery in Angmars past was the treachery of Rhudaur, wasn't it? I mean, thats not to understate it - that really messed Arnor up, when the wild men of Rhudaur unified under Hwaldar. (He was totally uncanon, while I'm at it. Who gave him and Rogash names? Anyways, I digress.) But should treachery really be that big of a point?

Rhudaur was taken by the Witch-king of Angmar pretty quickly, and easily. It was occupied territory, so the actions of the hill-men of Rhudaur, in my eyes, can't really be seen as treachery. Terror, yes. Angmar is a creepy faction (which is why I like them.) But its not like the Men of Arnor took up swords against one another during the Witch-kings forays into their lands.

[{IRS}Athos]

Now, if the Rhudaur-men were thralls *chased off the stage*

[{IP} Aridor]

Treachery was a huge part of the WK's plan. His war took hundreds of years. He first used his agents and spies to undermine Arnor proper so that when the King died his sons fought over the land. Then over the years he got the separate realms to isolate themselves. Since Rhudar was in a strategic point he went after them first, they were between Rivendell and the rest o Arnor and they were right next to his realm so his agents could move into this under populated realm easy. This is also where the Duindain were few so he moved his agents in the Dunlandings to marry into the Arnorian people. Then slowly as they the bloodline went dead he started working more openly and directly. He forged a secret alliance with the King of Rhudar, who was more Dunlanding than Dunidain. Moving openly the forces of Rhudar moved against Cardolan in an attempt to take the Weather Hills and Amon Sul, which had been long desired by Ruhdar and contested. They sought the Palantir in the tower. This battles last for many years until King Argleb died in battle fighting Rhudar, then years latter in a full frontal assault with the combined forces of Rhudar and Angmar they attacked and razed Amon Sul and then pushed into Cardolan whose. Arthedain was slow to come to the aid of Cardolan because of the distant and strained relationship between the two. Since the two nations had not been in union the forces of Cardolan were not enough to hold of the forces of Angmar. Then Angmar started a long siege of Arthedain. Only the forces of Gondor could help and they came far too late.