1109 replies to this topic

[Wanderer∞]

Like who?

[mike_]

The Witch-king?

[Wanderer∞]

Wooowww.....
I completely over thought that one

[Uruk King]

There may not hve been Black Numenoreans but there were a race of Men living at Carn Dum that weren't Hillmen, possibly Dunedain traitors who moved to Angmar in the time of Arnor's kin-strife.

[dojob]

Some people *cough*mike_*cough* would object to your cavalier attitude with the lore.

Then why did he come up with the idea of putting those BNs in? A big part of my tech tree was shamelessly stolen borrowed from his

[hallmackers]

Some people *cough*mike_*cough* would object to your cavalier attitude with the lore.

Well then, THOSE PEOPLE, as you put it, can can con ntact me and we can discuss the issue in a nice and civilized manner.

[hallmackers]

Some people *cough*mike_*cough* would object to your cavalier attitude with the lore.

Well then, THOSE PEOPLE, as you put it, can can con ntact me and we can discuss the issue in a nice and civilized manner.

[mike_]

Is there a reason you quoted yourself? Two minutes after posting? Seriously man...

And if you want to debate, I have a topic for that in the Green Dragon. I'd link you too it, but I feel doing the search yourself would be good for you

[hallmackers]

ok look, i realise this is an isue for some poepl but let us atleast try to come to some sort of compromise, now JRR tolkien never said that the black numenoreans died out, in fact i seem to recall him mentioning that they actuall at one time had great pwere in Harad and other lands to the east. And there was at atleast one black numenorean lord in angmar who was mentgioned breifly in the books. Just as the remnants of arnor eventually regained strength and numbers and then once again reforged a kingdom with the help of Gondor, Can we not also asume the descendents of the black numenoren lord also grew in numbers as they did else where in middle earth ? So perhaps the black numenoreans can play some role for the evil factions in the game, perhaps as some sort of minifacton that they all evil forces with the exception of isengard, that way they still play a role in the game but not a central role. There now is every one satisfied.

Edited by hallmackers, 14 February 2009 - 04:25 PM.

[hallmackers]

Is there a reason you quoted yourself? Two minutes after posting? Seriously man...

And if you want to debate, I have a topic for that in the Green Dragon. I'd link you too it, but I feel doing the search yourself would be good for you

sorry, i did not mean to quoute my self, i ws trying to actually edit my firstpost but accidentally ended up posting it twice.

[mike_]

They didn't go North, though. Tolkien even says in Akallabeth (the third book of the Silmarillion) that the King's Men went only South, not North. While it's possible that emissaries from the southern kingdom of Harad (which was dominated by two Black Numenoreans (Herumor and Ferumir) in the Second Age) had managed to travel the whole of North-eastern Middle-earth and come to the Witch-Realm of Angmar, it's very unlikely. Gondor was the leading sea-power at this time, and any Corsair vessels small enough to escape into the wide ocean would not have the provisions to make the full voyage. Not long after taking the port-city of Umbar for their own the Black Numenoreans were by-and-large merged with the native Haradrim, losing what little regality as was left in their line.

So, yeah. A single-unit Captain or Hero would be alright, but not full battalions. Also, the 'one Black Numenorean lord' you mentioned was the Witch-king himself.

[Uruk King]

You are correct of course, but there was still a number of Men living in Angmar and Carn Dum that weren't hillmen or Black Numenoreans, Merry obliquely mentions them in a dream that he experienced in the Barrow Downs when the Hobbits where captured by the Wights. These men may not have been Black Numenoreans but possibly traitors from Arnor that split from the three kingdoms during the peroid of civil-strife between the Dunedain and allied themselves to the Witch-King.

[mike_]

He means the Men of Carn-Dum, who (from his "dream") he says wielded spears ("Ah, the spear in my heart!").

[{IP} Aridor]

We aren't saying that there weren't Black Numenoreans just they weren't in Angmar. Now the topic of the Black Numenoreans is a complicated topic. There is a miss understanding about what a Black Numenorean is.

A Black Numenorean is a man of Numenor itself that worshiped the Dark Lord. These men turn their back on the True God Eru and started Worshiping the Dark Lord. They were few in number because not only would the hunted down by the other Numenoreans and tried for treason. This treason started appearing when the Numenoreans came back to Middle Earth. Some few men would be enticed by the possibility of power that evil seemed to offer and went over to it. These men became great leaders and captains for Sauron in his War to wipe out the ring. These men were very few in number as known but more were just corrupted in their hearts. They turned away from the true way a man should act and started coveting wealth and power. This also started in Numenor itself. There was a discontent and people started to be obsessed about avoiding death. Then when the King's of Numenor rejected the Valar and the Eldar they were just a step away from openly rejecting Eru. Then when the last King of Numenor invaded Middle Earth by way of their port at Umbar he took Sauron captive. Sauron's armies abandoned him in the face of the over whellming power of Numenor. Sauron was able to totally corrupt the king while he was held prisoner. The king and most of the people openly turned from the grace of Eru and worshiped the dark lord. The few that didn't were called the faithful and were led by Elendil. The others were called Kings men.

Now the Numenoreans under the King built a fleet and tried to invade Valinor. Elendil and the faithful fled to middle earth at the same time. Now the Kings men were all killed in the downfall of Numenor. So most of the evil Numenoreans died.

Now those that left were those in middle earth still, and here the first stick issue arises that leads to confusion. There were two types of bad Numenoreans left in middle earth. Those that had turned to darkness fully before the King and openly Worshiped the dark lord and fought against Numenor. The others were still loyal to Numenor and the king. They were still evil, but in a greedy despotic ruler way. They fought against the Orcs and other vile creatures but they were bad men.These men were known as King's men. These type of Numenoreans were the most prevalent. The faithful were always fewer in number. Now most of the King's men were in Umbar.

During the war of the last Alliance these few left overs of the king's men wouldn't help defeat Sauron and they fled into Harad. They became leaders and continued to attack the realms in exile for the rest of their lives. They were the original Corsairs of Umbar and constant tried to take the port back from Gondor.

Now the next confusing part. During the later years of the kings of Gondor. Their was a civil war over who would be King. The upspurers lost and fled to Umbar. These men under their leader Castimar embraced the last few King's men that were in Harad. These became the Corsairs and they caused great pain to Gondor.

Now back to the actual Black Numenoreans. These were always very few in number. The only one that we know left at the time of the WotR, besides some of the Nazgul, is the Mouth of Sauron. These true Black Numenorians were never great enough in numbers to be fielded as warriors. They also were magicians and sorcerers not warriors.

[Uruk King]

Well if that doesn't settle the debate as to what a Black Numenorean is, what will.

So of the Carn Dum men, what shall become of them? Reduced sumber, or entire removal?

[mike_]

I'd prefer them to be mid-game infantry, with Orcs taking the early-game spot. Barbarians of Cardolan could fit in somewhere, too.

[Wanderer∞]

They also were magicians and sorcerers not warriors.

So I guess sorcerers can be kept in Angmar then?

[mike_]

Bad choice of words, Aridor

[Wanderer∞]

Oh mike...

If the black numenoreans were so few in number, to please mike and everyone who wants sorcerers as a unit, why not have a sorcerer hero

[mike_]

Because they wouldn't please me at all! :O