1109 replies to this topic

[Ring o' Fate]

Bad idea...

[Captain of Arnor]

It was just the Witch-King of Angmar. And Morgomir, but Morgomir is an illusion whisped up by EA in their money-grubbing madness. =\ They really messed Angmar up pretty bad. Angmar was a faction of Evil Men. The Men of Carn Dum, rotten men from the areas around Bree, and of course Numenoreans turned evil. Like I said before, there were trolls and stuff around, but...not as many as EA pushed into Angmar.

But yeah. The Witch-King of Angmar and 'Morgomir' were the only Nazgul in the north after Saurons fall. Honestly, they should've used Karsh instead. Of course, Tolkien never said he was UP there, but it was a possibility since all of the Nine were pretty much lost to the winds after Saurons fall. He could've been anywhere. (He was probably away in the East though, with the Easterlings.)

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 01:19 AM.

[Captain of Arnor]

The hill men aren't ment to have armor. They're from the hills. Untrained barbarian hordes meant to overwhelm their enemies in sheer numbers, not through skill or with iron blades or armor. They're not supposed to be mighty warriors - they're supposed to be cannon-fodder for the Black Numenorean Rangers and Swordsmen. They go in first, weaken the enemy (and inevitably die) then the Black Numenoreans come in and wipe the slate. Making the hill men into combinable hordes would be freaking awesome though. It'd make them harder to take out, as it is now they are a bit too easy to kill. But thats why you pump out 3-5 thrall masters at a time and make them all into different units, with two as Gundabad Orcs (because of the number of units).

I agree with you, Dunedain_Lord, on almost everything but the hill men. Morgomir will be getting a reskin later (like everything in Angmar, I think, from what I've heard) and the reskins the guys here do are amazing. And I also don't think the trolls should be Angmars elite unit. Rather, I think they also should basically be cannon-fodder, personally. They should be weakened and used as harassment armies, like the cave trolls for the goblins, only with weapons. Something else should get the elite unit...I don't know what. Maybe a group of special wraiths? Hmm...

Actually! Honestly, what I think is this.

Men of Carn-Dum should replace the Black Numenorean units in all forms. Soldiers of Carn-Dum, Archers of Carn-Dum, (Angmar Rangers?) This should all go in the Hall of the Kings Men. And the Men of Carn-Dum should also become cavalry. Knights of Carn-Dum anyone? So that we keep the hillmen as harassment forces, but add Men to the faction so that its less of a stupid EA petting zoo, like I said before.

BUT

I think Angmars elite unit should be like the elite unit for the Elves. Black Numenoreans, with switchable weapons and everything.

Even I have my stroke of genius sometimes.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 02:26 AM.

[shadowcreature]

Men of Carn-Dum sound like a fitting replacement for Angmar's army backbone. Trolls and orcs can serve support roles i suppose, while leave Black Numenorians for an elite unit role. It be interesting if they had a toggle.

[mike_]

...finally...

[Captain of Arnor]

I agree, Shadow. Mike, if you want my opinion, I'll give it gladly. :D

Don't get fully rid of the Black Numenoreans. Keep them as Angmars Elite Unit. That way there aren't so many (fifteen total, assuming they come in hordes of 5 with 3 at the max) but they're still in the faction for those who feel like they belong there (which I do, even if they play a very small role).

Make the Men of Carn-Dum the main role of Angmars army. Like the Arnor Soldiers and the Gondor Soldiers, you know? Swordsmen of Carn-Dum and Archers of Carn-Dum would be a great way to go. Follow that up with a cavalry unit (Knights of Carn-Dum) to support the mounted Witch-King and finally, Angmar Rangers (Or something like that) as an elite ranged unit (like the Dunedain Rangers, and the Rangers of Ithillen) and you've got an EPIC Angmar faction.

Finish that off with Thrall Hordes as supporting forces, along with trolls and wolves, and you're good to go. But this is, like I said, just me spitting out ideas. :D Then we only have to work out a new Hero unit, assuming the talk about implementing a Black Numenorean Hero is going to be humored.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 03:22 AM.

[dojob]

So, u'd like a tech tree like this?


Breeding Pit/Gundabad Chambers/Gundabad Pit/Breeding Chambers/etc
Lvl1:
-Gundabad Chieftain/Champion: Thrall master, gets gundabad orcs, gundabad archers, and wolf riders

Lvl2:
-Some kinda upgrade that makes thrall units better; would give people a reason to buy this building instead of traitor camps early on.

Lvl3:
-Angmar Trolls (Bigger and better than before, are very tough/armored, and come in 3s): Armed with the same pike/hammers as hill-trolls and are good vs almost all units, but extremely good vs cavalry and do knockback to them as well as other units.

Traitors' Camp
Lvl1:
-Rhudaur Brigands: Light infantry armed with spears that can only get banners but move quickly

-Rhudaur Hunters: Light Rhudaur infantry that can toggle between bows and axes and can be upgraded with blades and ice arrows, but not armor.

Lvl2:
-Men of Carn Dum: Heavy spearmen that aren't quite as good against cav as they are against infantry.

-Banner Carriers

Lvl3:
-Carn Dum/Traitor Captains; Elite single units (or come in 3s, but then would need a name change) that are good with bows and swords, give leadership, and should probably get some other abilities as well. Either come upgraded or can get blades and ice arrows.

Wolf Den
Lvl1:
-Wolf Pack: Like the Dire Wolves already in the game, but with a better skin.

Lvl2:
-That upgrade that gives wolves spiky collars

Lvl3:
-Werewolf: Like a troll, but faster and a weaker, maybe gets a howl ability and leap

Temple of Twilight
Lvl1:
-Sorcerer (If limited in numbers, then they'd need to be buffed)

Lvl2:
-Vampires (fast flying units that have quick attacks and give debuffs to enemies. If stealth becomes more important, then perhaps you could give them stealth detection)

Lvl3:
-Upgrade that lets you put wight creeps on ur buildings

*Sorcerer ability upgrades remain at their current levels

Dark Iron Forge
-Stone Thrower: Same old unit, but with better looking Trolls or evil men.

-Same upgrades as before: armor, blades, and ice arrows

[Captain of Arnor]

I HATE MY MOUSE. Its broken so sometimes it double-clicks. I'm sorry about the double posting, guys.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 07:21 PM.

[Captain of Arnor]

If I were to make my own tech tree, I'd want it to look something like this, really.


Hall of the Kings Men -


Level I - Thrall Master. (Keeps all units)

Level II - Men of Carn-Dum / Soldiers of Carn-Dum / Swordsmen of Carn-Dum (Early to mid-game swordsmen units)

Level II - Banner Carrier upgrade. (Unless this should go in the Dark Iron Forge, but I don't think it should.)

Level III- Dark Numenoreans. (Elite unit for Angmar. Only get five units in this horde, limited to three hordes in all. This is just because I really don't feel like Dark Numenoreans should be fully removed. I do think, now, that they SHOULD be limited, however.)




Dark Ranger Camp -


Level I- Archers of Carn-Dum. (Yeah, they should go here instead of in the Hall of the Kings Men, now that I think about it)

Level II- Angmar Rangers. (Angmars elite ranged unit, like Rangers of Ithillin or the Dunedain Rangers. Can cloak in forests and all that.)

Level III - Captain of the Kings Men. (This would be Angmars Captain unit, with a weapon-toggle ability available at first, as well as leadership buffs and more skills later. Finally, they maybe get a mount at the higher levels?)


Wolf Den -


Level I- Wolf Pack. (Dire wolves. Same thing.)

Level II- Gundabad Wolf Riders. (This can be a cheap, fast harassment cavalry unit and should totally replace werewolves, since the idea of werewolves is really lame and completely off-story. Werewolves were in Angbad, guys. Not Angmar. They don't belong here.)

Level III- Spiked Collars. (Yep, that old upgrade.)


Temple of Twilight -


(Untouched, assuming we even keep it. I'm all for tossing it out and replacing it with a Cavalry building. If we keep it, then limit the sorcerers. I'll list the Cavalry building here instead.)


Stables of the Kings Men -


Level I- Knights of Carn-Dum. (Yep. Just mounted swordsmen, you know how it goes.)

Level II- Mounted Angmar Rangers. (Mounted archers. Pretty basic stuff.)

Level III- (I suppose this could be open to discussion. I would say add a mounted elite unit here, but that could be a bit suggestive. But then again, most factions do have mounted elite units as well as infantry, so...who knows?)


Dark Iron Forge -


(Same stuff, including the ice arrows upgrade. I figured something else out for the Dark Ranger camp. Moved Archers of Carn-Dum into the Ranger Camp instead of in the Hall of the Kings Men.)

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 08:10 PM.

[Dragonforce]

And then I'll post mine

Breeding pit:
I Angmar orcs (Better orcs than goblins/Mordor orcs, uses shield and all kinds of hand-to-hand weapons)
I Wolf riders (Better skin)
II Banner Carrier
III Snow Troll (Same old unit but better skin)
III Hill Troll (Same old unit but MUCH better skin)

House of Traitors
I Rhudaur Hunters (Hillmen with shortbows)
I Rhudaur Spearmen (Better skin again)
II Men of Carn Dûm (Heavily armoured units with anti-infantry spear & shield)
III Black Numenorian (Captain unit, limited in numbers)

Den
I Dire wolves
II Spike collars
III Werewolf (Single, creepy unit.)

Temple of Twilight
I Sorcerers
II Spell upgardes
III Vampires

Dark Iron Forge
Same units & upgardes but better skin to Stone Thrower

I know it's kinda same as dojobs but there's some units I don't want to be removed

Edited by Dragonforce, 17 March 2009 - 07:51 PM.

[Captain of Arnor]

Do you not see though? The werewolves, the vampires and sorcerers aren't canon. They're not in the story at all. Sorcerers MAY be, but Tolkien was cloudy on that. But the fact is that werewolves and vampires are absolutely not mentioned in the War of the Ring, not one time. And The Witch-King of Angmar had no werewolves or vampires with him anyways, because they were all killed or ran off after Morgoth was imprisoned in the void. Those shouldn't be in this mod. The ice wolf guy is bad enough.

Being completely honest, my tech-tree gives a good diversity and flow. Dragon, you and Dojob are still too focused on the monster aspect.

Werewolves and Vampires don't belong in the mod at all. But thats only my say I guess.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 08:11 PM.

[Ring o' Fate]

Dude, you think you are the lore king? I'll be honest, I love Dojob's better than yours. Hell, I prefer Dragon's one better. You are just making another Gondor. We already have one, we don't need another. And I do recall Dojob saying a while back talking about the use of fear in the Enemy factions, and I recall him saying that Angmar is fear like creatures of utter horrer, or something like that. Meh, I'm too lazy to look.

[Morgulshade]

Well, I dont think werewolves should be available as a unit also, same for vampires...What I think is that there should be a werewolf hero and/or vampire. That way it would be like a werewolf that survived the war or something like that. It would be more fitting I think...as I said, the ice werewolf could be easily reskinned.

and also for a Numenorean hero, you could add an early version of the Mouth of Sauron. Something like the Witch King's lieutenant, that after serving well in the war, became the Mouth of Sauron. This would also solve the hero's issue.
Any thoughts? ^^

Edited by Morgulshade, 17 March 2009 - 08:57 PM.

[Lord of Mordor]

With Angmar, knowledge of the lore means less than for any of the other factions, because there simply isn't that much lore. No matter which approach you'd prefer, they're all based on assumptions. Sorcerers, Black Numenoreans and Werewolves weren't mentioned in regards to Angmar, but they fit and they're not TOO far off from what could have been possible (no, not even sorcerers - the Mouth of Sauron was a human who learned the ways of evil magic from his master).

The one thing I'd really like to see for Angmar is the inclusion of a Barrows building, because the Wights are one of the few things that are 100% confirmed and, lore-wise, unique to Angmar. They could get abilities capitalizing on fear, or maybe turn themselves invisible to infiltrate the enemy.

Faramir, I think your list has a bit TOO much men ^^ Horse-Archers, the pinnacle of the arts of both horsemenship and archery, are something I'd never give to Angmar. A faction has to put serious focus on at least one of these two disciplines to believably field Horse-Archers, which is why Rohan and the Elves have them (and the MotE should have them too, I'm not sure right now wether they do).

[Captain of Arnor]

Ring of Fate, I don't know what your deal is but I'm certainly not a 'lore king'. Tolkiens works made it impossible for anyone to be a...'lore king'...and Tolkien himself was the closest anyone could come to one. But he himself said he didn't fully comprehend all of his works 100%. :D I'm only going off of what I've read in The Lord of the Rings and the appendixes, as well as the Silmarillion. And I'll say it again.

I, at no moment in time, ever read any single thing about vampires and/or werewolves in Angmar. Not once. To add them would take away from the canon aspect that this mod has preserved so well.

Fact of the matter is this. Angmar was a faction of the Men of Carn-Dum and hill men, everywhere you read about them. There were some smart trolls like Rogash (he's not even canon anyways), but not in the huge numbers that EA made. Wolves were there as well, but once again, not in those numbers. It was men. If you don't like it, then go to Tolkiens grave and complain. Because of all the histories in LotR, Angmar and Arnor interest me most. I just wish there was more about them. I've read a decent bit about them, in the appendixes and on random websites, wherever I could. Fact is, hill men and evil men are the way to go for Angmar. I'm not saying turn it into another Gondor (How would my tech tree become another Gondor? Because I took away the random creatures EA threw in for shits and giggles? XD) but it needs to stick to what Angmar was in the histories.

Mordor, what you say makes sense. And I agree, yeah, horse archers were a bit much I suppose. But I needed filler for the third level spot and something had to be added. Of course, its all open to discussion. And a barrows building would be great.

Edited by Lord_Faramir, 17 March 2009 - 09:09 PM.

[Morgulshade]

Then Ok, a werewol hero is not a good idea...But then the Ice wolf power should be removed too :/ But still no one is telling me if what I say about the Mouth of Sauron could be good! I want to know if im talking nonsense!

[Ring o' Fate]

Dude, it COULD be possible that there were Werewolves and Vampires in Angmar. How would it take away the canon factor?
And you are turning it into a Gondor with some extra stuff. And, as Mordor said, there are too many men. And I believe Horse Archers go to the TRUE Horsemasters and Archers. And wolves can be Cav enough. Look at Isen! And then there are the unit amounts.... You now have at least 5 ranged units in this faction alone. They probably didn't use that many kinds of archers! And you only have at least 3 kinds of swordsmen. Angmar doesn't sound like a ranged faction in the books do they?

[Uruk King]

Oh please, the BNs were only native to Mordor and Umbar, not the North, there were a race of men living in Carn Dum. I don't think Angmar's strength should be in archery or cavalry, but mainly vast hordes of warriors, and fear inducing monsters.

I also mainly agree with Dojob's techtree.

[Dalf32]

hope you dont mind AA, but im jacking this post of yours

Angmar, well now we arrive at the purpose of this post. Angmar is totally different than all the others. They don't inspire fear through numbers, they don't unnerve their enemies through an unstoppable machine, and the definitely don't feel like they never end. Yet they are the most fear inducing force of evil. They cause fear and terror through sheer horror. They are the force of evil that aproaches under a dark cloud of vampire bats.
The Arnor soldier sees a thick black fog approaching and all he sees are monstrous outlines and the dark shadows of crazed screaming barbarians. He doesn't hear the screeches of goblins, the growls of orc, nor the steady thud of iron. No all he hears are screams of terror, roars of bizarre beasts, and the sounds of his nightmares. His captain advances in-front of the line to try and bolster his men. He advances towards the oncoming terror and faces his men. As he raises his sword in defiance and starts to utter a battlecry, a dark shadow swoops from the sky and engulfs him. He disappears into the wings of a vampire and his battlecry becomes a scream of terror and pain. It is cut short as the vampire jerks violently. His men are in shock and terror. The vampire lifts its bloody mouth and wails as it takes flight again. A soldier falls over crying in horror as his comrade throws down his gear and flees. The line breaks as men flee cursing and full of terror. The generals try to stop their men and gather small pockets for defense, but to no avail. The wildmen fall on them crazed with battle. The few brave men left fight valiantly against these barbarians. The wild hordes are not a formidable enemy but they are crazed and fight like men drunk on blood. Then monsters fall on the pockets of bravery. Trolls armed with weapons of torture, wraiths that drive men mad, and huge wolves and wargs tear into men's flesh. The brave men of Arnor are still holding. Their numbers are equal to their foe. They might yet win the day. Then a madding fear comes over the men and most flee. The general's body guard is all that is left. The world itself seems twisted by this approaching dark terror. His men quake in their boots as the wildmen halt for a second and pull away, clearly they to feel this oppressive fear too. Then as a dark fog flows around the bodyguard and the sky turns black as nature seems to be twisted in horror. With a roar massive werewolves jump out of the fog as vampires fall from the sky. The brave men of arnor are torn to pieces. The General his stunned senseless. The monsters are about to him, his death is near, when suddenly they stop. Even these beasts of terror pull back as a dark cloud of fear comes up. It is the Witch King himself. He pulls a long dark sword covered in vile runes and cursed with morgul. The brave general of Arnor raises his sword in defiance. The Witch only laughs and mocks him, "I see that the fallen men of Numenor still have the hearts of their fathers, too bad they don't have the strength." He laughs a cold chilling laugh as the champion of Arnor's sword shatters from the Witch King's spell. The General's eyes open wide in horror as the black morgul blade pierces his heart. His last dying bodyguard watches in sheer terror as his leader withers and shrivels from the vile stab.

That's how Angmar induces fear. I think a semi-good idea of Angmar is the forces of Evil in the Narnia. They had a lot in common. C.S. Lewis wrote to his friend J.R.R. about it.

this much more like how im thinking angmar should be. i really dont want it to become an evil version of gondor, or even just another isengard or mordor. it needs to be altogether unique. it needs to be dark and brooding, but without relying on sheer numbers or anything like that. angmar needs to be terrifying and the best way to do that is to fill it with creatures that, by their very nature, inspire fear.

and i dont remember who said it, but angmar is NOT part of the wotr era, and as such, you cant really use much of anything from the trilogy when constructing them. therefore, just because there were no vampires in the wotr trilogy, doesnt mean there werent any beforehand (and, in fact, there were).