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Heroes


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#1 Guest_Guest_Saruman_*_*

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 04:57 PM

*editing title of thread* /Naz

Was reading one of the threads and noticed a comment from Nazgul about trying to stop the game being a hero spamfest. This is one issue I have with mods, the sheer number of heroes each faction is given. It just seems these heroes get added for the sake of it, and you end up getting loads of them fighting it out. How about some kind of system to limit the building of heroes? For example, give the factions large hero lists however make it that you can only recruit 3 of them during a game. It should stop the game being too hero based, and also mean the player can tailor his army more to his liking and diversify the games.

Edited by Nazgûl, 16 September 2007 - 01:41 AM.


#2 Nazgûl

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 05:02 PM

Actually I agree with you, but ever since this mod started to get even a bit famous I've been SWAMPED with requsts on adding this and that, and that too, and why not this too, and maybe that. Let's not forget THAT too, and this... and...

You get the picture. I guess I'm just trying to please...
But I agree with you. Heroes are tanks and thet lessen the need for units and this game SHOULD be about units really... =p

Good point =)

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#3 The Best Guest

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 09:35 PM

i think we should add heroes but make them weaker like have them just be stronger units because when it comes down to things they weren't gods just better at fighting

Edited by That Best Guest, 22 July 2007 - 09:35 PM.

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#4 Nazgûl

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 11:42 PM

Yeah, but then they would die ALL THE TIME, and respawn... die, respawn... die, respawn... die, respawn... :p

Tough one.

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#5 CapnAstroSponge

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 11:45 PM

Well, the Heroes are sort of what make one faction different from the next. No one really picks up these games for the pikemen, or the calvary, they pick it up for the heroes.
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Never come between a Capn and his..uh..AstroSponge? No, no...Never come between a CapnAstro and his Sponge! Uh.....this doesn't work as well as the other guys names..

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#6 The Best Guest

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 11:46 PM

yes mybe there should battlions of heros (not mini heros)


P.S. Naz did you get my PM about the job offer?
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#7 Nazgûl

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Posted 22 July 2007 - 11:51 PM

@Cap: True!

@TBG: Yes, and I replied to it, and got another one back :p
Just let me know when you are ready to start testing and I'll set you up... =) (send PM when that is)

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#8 The Best Guest

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 12:12 AM

offt PMed you
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#9 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:04 AM

Back at MEV, pre-nazi era, the MEV Unofficial Patch Mod (later dubbed the Community balance mod) had an interesting idea around heroes. They made it where you couldn't summon a hero until after two minutes in a game. Since your gameplay is much slower than the regular game, you could increase the time limit, or make it where you have to have certain production structures before you can recruit heroes. Moving Rohan heroes to the Golden Hall will help things along too, though Rohan heroes are mostly early-midgame.
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#10 clonecommand

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:09 AM

I personally don't like the idea of strong heros. Even if they're mine. They belong as strong support troops, not an individual Panzer vs. a brigade of Polish tanks :blink: Posted Image

#11 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:10 AM

^^^agree. A single troll could squash lil gorny anyday.
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#12 Nazgûl

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:36 AM

I agree too, beleive me. I hate seeing Aragorn receive 250 arrows before falling, but considering how stupid the AI is, the AI heroes would fall like 100 times during a normal game of SEE, since they usually use them as "spear heads" in front of the army... :/

If we could only get the AI to use heroes in a less "Look a fortress! I think I'm gonna go over there alone and hit it with my sword 7 billion times and maybe it will fall? OUCH, what was that? Oh, it was just a ballista sending a 20 foot 600 pound pike into my back, but that's ok, cause I'm Aragorn!!!" :blink:

Edited by Nazgûl, 23 July 2007 - 01:36 AM.

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#13 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 02:56 AM

idea!!!! maybe make heroes have just a little mroe health, but give them a 75% or sumthin like that chance to dodge, eh? be a lot more realistic, since in the movies ol arry didn't walk arond with 200000 arrows stickin out of his gut, he dodged them!
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#14 Lord of the Rings Junkie

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 03:52 AM

If we could only get the AI to use heroes in a less "Look a fortress! I think I'm gonna go over there alone and hit it with my sword 7 billion times and maybe it will fall? OUCH, what was that? Oh, it was just a ballista sending a 20 foot 600 pound pike into my back, but that's ok, cause I'm Aragorn!!!" :p

:p Perhaps we could alleviate some of that by making them A LOT more vulnerable to weapons that do structural damage. (i.e. hit by flaming catapult ammo = death) An exception might be Gandy because of his magic bubble shield. Heroes could be made more relatively valuable by greatly increasing respawn time and cost. No more hero spamming! :blink: Personally I don't think you should be able to re-spawn a hero more than once or twice a skirmish. Once Eowyn and Merry killed the Witch King at Pellennor fields I don't think they worried about him coming back in the same battle! :good:

Edited by Lord of the Rings Junkie, 23 July 2007 - 03:59 AM.

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#15 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 04:23 AM

The (AI) solution must be found somewhere else. If Buildtime/Respawntime and/or -cost is increased, it does not stop the AI from starting to build the hero. That would simply bind the resources to the construction and cripple the AI economy. It's that simple. I am experimenting with build priorities though (whereever i can find settings).

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#16 Lord of Mordor

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 09:37 AM

Maybe you could reduce the number of heroes by making the player "unlock" the hero first by paying spellpoints (depending on the hero's strength, hobbits shouldn't cost any points) and then he can build him and revive him whenever he wants. Reviving could be made a lot more expensive and take much time so you really have to take care of your heroes.

Maybe also add a limit of how many heroes you can unlock per game, but I would'nt like that. Once I have all the ressources for it, I like the feeling of having all heroes of my faction on the field fighting together.

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#17 Allathar

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 12:51 PM

Or, instead of them using command points, let them be summoned by command points!


Kinda confused?


Here's the idea: i.e. You got an army of 200 commandpoints, so that means you can buy Éowyn or whatever. Aragorn requires i.e. an army of 750 command points before he can be bought.
But the player can than, after having an army of i.e. 1000 command points summon every hero they'd like. So I'd put a hero limit on it, so you'll have to choose: will I buy Éowyn to lead my small army, or will I wait until my army's got bigger and then buy Aragorn?

So, this *brilliant* idea solves several things:
- The early-game hero spamfest, cuz you'll need armies before heroes can be bought
- Many heroes in-game at the same time
- Strategy of deciding which hero to use




Another example: mordor. Because orcs are cheapish you'll get their number grow bigger so you can buy a Nazgul after reaching the required army command points. That'll add to the movie-feeling your mod wants to create: you get a small orc army with 1 Nazgul, or a medium army with 2 Nazgul, or a giant army with 8 Nazgul and the Witch-King! So no more armies without orcs and only Nazgul!

Edited by Allathar, 23 July 2007 - 12:55 PM.

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#18 Lord of Mordor

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 01:32 PM

Thats not a bad idea. I would, however, make it possible to revive every hero you built once, and not make the revive require the CP as well, because that would just get annoying. (also, if your army gets defeated and the enemy marches towards your camp, this situation would be even worse than it is now because it would deny you reviving all your powerful heroes)

You contradict yourself with the Mordor example, though: If you put a hero limit on, there will never be such a thing as a giant army with all nine nazgûl, since a limit would probably be lower than nine. I wouldn't like not being able to lead all nine nazgûl together, though... but if you put no limit on and heroes wouldn't cost any CP anymore, it would things worse than they are now.

Edited by Lord of Mordor, 23 July 2007 - 01:32 PM.

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#19 Allathar

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 02:38 PM

Oh, ur right about the contradict thing, I was just trying to make an example ye know... But it's different story with Mordor, what's the point of having all NINE available in the game when there's a friggin hero limit?! So I'd say you can build all nine once you purchased an upgrade that takes away the hero limit or something...

And about the example you give, if your entire army is slaughtered it'd be more realistic if you pump out normal units first and heroes later. So same thing with reviving, you must get to the command points first.
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#20 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 03:29 PM

Is this still about the 'AI' HeroBuild behavior, or is this about 'Player' HeroBuild behavior?

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