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#1 Nazgûl

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 05:13 PM

Time for a dedicated thread to my favourite Orcs - the Uruk-hai ;)


I've been thinking about the use of Spam troops and Support troops, and I'm leaning to a slight rework here... The way I see it all factions should have Spam troops and Support troops in some manner. The support troops, like; Dunlendings, Corsair, Dale, and so on, should not be spammed really since that will sorta take away the feeling of the faction...

Mordor should be mostly about Orcs,
Isengard about Uruks,
Moria about Goblins,
Dwarven about Dwarves,
Elven about Elves,
MotW about Men...

Pretty straight forward right... But some factions do have the ability to spam troops that should not really be spammed, and my biggest problem is the Dunlendings. The way I see the movies, they were GREATLY outnumbered by the 10 000 uruks that Saruman unleached, and the WildMen of Dunland was not more than a few hundered? Anyway, this is what I would like to do for Isengard...


ISENGARD FACTION unit setup for SEE Beta V
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SPAM/DEFENCE: Lvl1 Isengard Orcs. Cheap, fast to recruit, but weak. (Use the normal/regular EA orcs, but with better skins - or the Snaga orcs that work the Lumber Mills, but with LUA weapons) Limited to 2 hordes!
SUPPORT: WildMen of Dunland. Specialized in stealing resources and have very high attack v/s structures. Limited to 4 hordes!
BASIC/REGULAR: Lvl2 Uruk-hai soldiers. Crossbows, Pikemen & Swordsmen. Very high armor, strong but not that fast moving.
ELITE: Lvl3 Uruk-hai Scout-raiders. Low armor, but very strong and very fast on foot! Limited to 2-4 hordes!
SUPER ELITE: Lvl3 Uruk-hai Berserkers Limited to 10 units + Uruk-hai of Orthanc Limited to 2 hordes!

This way we wouldn't have to see endless hordes of Dunlendings rushing in stealing tons of resources in our bases but instead we get to fight lesser Orcs (think those guys walking into Sarumans "office" right before they start building their "uruk factories"), plus I think it would look cool in case you go Mordor vs Isengard, to have different orc tribes fight eachother :blink: And the only thing we would have to do is basically to re-add the normal Orcs, but into Isengard =)

:p

Edited by Nazgûl, 09 October 2009 - 10:08 PM.

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#2 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 05:48 PM

I believe Saruman got his first stock of Orcs from Mordor. But i doubt he would use them as anything but slave labor and breeding stock.

What is SPAMMING anyway? Are we talking about fast mass-production or about cheap and expendable cannon fodder (which would not necessitate large numbers)?

I think the only units that Isengard should mass produce are Uruk-hai. To prevent the flood of Dunlendings, we could just increase the production time and decrease their army percentage in later phases.


Slightly offtopic: We might also adjust BuildTime in general:

108s - Basic units (Raiders, Wildmen, any horde that is recruited from level 1 barracks)
120s - Level 2 Units
160s - Level 3 Units

These are just basic values. If you build Orthanc Guard (160s) from a necessary level 3 Pit (67.5% BuildTime advantage), they will also need only 108s.

This would make basic units trainable faster in lategame compared to elite units.

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#3 Nazgûl

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 06:37 PM

Aight, NM... it was just a thought... =p

Spam units = Early game units that are cheap and fast to recruit.

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#4 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 06:57 PM

I like the idea though. But not with 'MordorOrcs'. How about the Raiders? We'd need to make them a bit weaker. I could see them spamming the early game. Compared to them, the Dunledings ARE better. They have upgrades plus special abilities. We could limit them, just like we should limit Hobbit hordes.

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#5 clonecommand

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Posted 23 July 2007 - 08:11 PM

Please, take one!

If there is maybe a very different breed of orcs that can be used as spam...Or maybe just have the raiders as spam.

#6 Allathar

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 01:14 PM

Saruman didn't got his first orcs from Mordor, they were Orcs and Gobbo's from the Misty Mountains.

It does make sense that Isen should be mainly Uruks, except for early game where our white-bearded fallen maiar friend has to rely on orcs, gobbo's and dunlendings until he perfected his creation: his fighting Uruk-Hai...
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#7 The Best Guest

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 01:17 PM

But still 10000 uruks i bet he had some he could spam
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#8 Allathar

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 01:44 PM

That was in the Two Towers... I say that's end-game Isengard. :p
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#9 Strider

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 03:22 PM

I dont like the Iengard Orcs. I think we should scrap them and have Scouts be the Early game Isengard spam with Dunlnders limited to 4-6 batts since Sarumon didnt have that many at his disposle.

Same for Hobbits, limet them since the AI goes crazy with Hobbit Spam.

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#10 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 08:54 PM

ewww...hobbit spam. >_<

anyways, maybe the raider needs a counterpart...like a raider archer? Extend the isen early game, and add some versatility to troop deployment.
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#11 Nazgûl

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 11:10 PM

Saruman didn't got his first orcs from Mordor, they were Orcs and Gobbo's from the Misty Mountains.

It does make sense that Isen should be mainly Uruks, except for early game where our white-bearded fallen maiar friend has to rely on orcs, gobbo's and dunlendings until he perfected his creation: his fighting Uruk-Hai...


That was kinda what I meant too... :huh: And the AI would be set up to use them ONLY in Phase 1 (first 10 mins), but hey... Maybe I'll just do it anyways *feeling bossy* :p (Not for this rel though)

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#12 clonecommand

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 06:37 PM

I noticed that Uruk Raiders ROCK! They easily kill all other attackers, including heros (Eomer, Faramir, etc). Since the weakest unit is Wildmen, and they will soon be limited, they need a cheap (very cheap) alternative, hence the term "spam." I thought about a small group (5-10) of the snaga-type workers and they would be armed with small axes or something. Just like hobbits. In short, they would be like a group of workers that are about par with orcs.

EDIT: It would also be cool for the Uruk Elite to have a toggle weapon. They are elite, ya know :shiftee:

EDIT2: And Wildmen should get money from creeps, but they are stealing from the stuff that you normally get from destoying the creep. so when that cash is depleted (if they still have not destroyed it) they don't get any money from destroying it.

EDIT3: Maybe I should look at my suggestions before hitting "complete edit" :grin:

The Wildmen tent should also be able to level up.

Edited by clonecommand, 26 July 2007 - 06:45 PM.


#13 Nazgûl

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 08:48 PM

The problem with using Raiders as early game units is just that they are Uruks, and the way I see Middle Earth (based on the movies) the general uruk is at least twice the strenght of a regular gondor soldier. And the raiders are based on the group lead by Ugluk, that captured Merry and Pippin and in no way are they "wuzz"... so that's why I had them at higher level before. I don't really like them as eary game (lvl1). I'd rather move them back at least to level two, or limit them in number, specialize them in speed (moving fast), and have another unit type for the "spamming"...

Spam troops = Early game units that are more or less cheap and fast to recruit. I think Snaga orcs would fit that role very good and I imagine all the orcs tearing up Isengard soil in the movies, for this. We could also set the AI to use these ONLY in phase one (first 10 mins). But if Sul doesn't like it, I have to do it against his will, and I rather not (even if I'm the boss :grin:) hehe. So we'll see, but I guess I need to balance raiders more for this setup to work...

Uruks of Orthanc (uruk elite) could get bow toggle if any of the modelers would like to help using Lurt'z anims for that. But that would be for next beta.

- The creep way works fine I think. That way they can get resources from those things (by stealing from the treasure) and thus empty it, leaving empy crates for the enemy in case they take the creep instead :shiftee:

- The Hobbit House doesn't level up either. Why do all things have to level up? :grin: I'm not saying I haven't thought about it though... We'll see *noted*

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#14 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 10:50 PM

The guard would only need bow/arrow stuff for that. Putting in Lurtz' anims should be easy, as they already use Lurtz skeleton and anims for everything else.

Still, i'd rather have the Raiders with a Bow/sword Toggle, as you have seen them use those in the movies. :p

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#15 Guest_Guest_Saruman_*_*

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 10:59 PM

The way i see it Isen shouldnt really have spam units. To me they are about the sheer power of the Uruk. Not mass numbers like mordor, but good numbers of bloomin tough as nuts Uruks! The wildmen to me also need to have a specific role, and like the movies, this should be resource building attacks. Make them useless vs other units, but make them decent against resource buildings. After all, in the films the only time we saw them was burning rohan farms! They should harass the enemys economy early game to keep them from building an early army, in order for isen to get the uruks rolling out! Uruk, Uruk, Uruk! Yes, I do have a slight favouritism for the Uruks!

#16 Strider

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 11:02 PM

Yay, I got to be Loremaster again! Uruk-hai are about the equivilant to a Gondor Soldier in physical strength(if the Gondorian is in shape like Boromir or Faramir). But Uruk-hai are mercless and bloodthirsty.

I say just kocked down scouts to a lower stregnth but keep them fast and make them early game units like they are now. It only makes sence to have Scouts early on.

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#17 clonecommand

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 01:20 AM

I recall Uruks being described as twice the size of a man, and lot stronger. Take the size of Uruks in the TT video game. Massive, aren't they? :p

#18 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 02:10 AM

agreed...uruks should be quite large.
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#19 Nazgûl

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 04:04 AM

Besides, this is not a Lore mod you know... it's still a Movie mod, and I'd say the average man kicks orc butt, but the avarage uruk kicks man butt :p In PJ movies that is... and PJ is like my personal version of Sauron. PJ's will be done... lol

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#20 Allathar

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Posted 27 July 2007 - 01:38 PM

Don't forget this is a movie mod. In the books the troops of Isengard consist mainly of Dunlendings, Gobbo's from the Misty Mountains, and half-orcs with the Uruk-Hai only forming the über-elite-pwnage-superior - well you get the point, but in the books the Uruks were limited in numbers, Saruman got only about a few hundred of them. Sarumans army in Bree-land and the Shire contained half-orcs, spies, and other bad thugs.

In the movies however, it's all Uruk, Uruk, Uruk, except early on where Saruman uses Orcs and Goblins from the Misty Mountains and some hordes of Dunlendings to burn down unprotected Rohan villages. After that, all that is used are Uruk-Hai (including the ten thousand he unleashed on Helm's Deep) with only a few Misty Mountain orcs and goblins to protect Isengard. No half-orcs whatsoever, which is strange, considering in the books the main part of the army were half-orcs.

To get to the point, in the books the Uruks are waaaaay stronger than in the movies, but also very limited in numbers. In the movies, the Uruks are still the superior bad-asses, but not as strong as described in the books and above all heavily numbered.

Like Naz said: Uruks > men > orcs > gobbo's

So, if we would be true to the lore:
1: Spamming Misty Mountain orcs & gobbo's
2: Using Dunlendings to burn down some resource buildings
3: Half-orcs, common soldiers which are outnumbering the good forces, but not that much
4: Limited Uruk-Hai that pwn all

But, this is a movie mod, so:
1: Spamming Misty Mountain gobbo's and using limited hordes of Dunlendings to burn resource buildings
2: Using Uruk Raiders as common soldier, good speed
3: Using regular Uruks as strongest regular soldier (so they pwn all other regular solds), good numbered but expensive
4: Uruk-Hai berserkers and Uruks of Orthanc as THE ELITE
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP




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