231 replies to this topic

[witchkingshour]

Well yeah Urak-Hai should be weaker than Dwarves just because Dwarves should have the most hp for a unit. But Uraks really have speed and power and we can't take that away. I mean I sen doesn't have some of the sutf other armies do. Isen doens't have the heroes and elite units that Men and Mordor have. Dwarves have possibly some of the hardest enemies to kill. So perhaps the Uraks need to really be able to stand toe to toe with any type of melee unit, but I think without any buffs or leadership, say Guardians should win one on one.

[SovietSoldier]

http://oz.games-work...guard_troll.htm
hm?what do you think about this cool isengard troll?can we add this?

[Nazgûl]

We might do some new Troll unit for Isen yes. But not any time soon...

well yea for the uruks since there "fearless" maybe they should have the smallest fear so maybe only the really big stuff (mumakils, AOD, Balrog)

thats all i got right now

It's a good idea, but considering that the Uruk-Hai were not quite "fearless" when they were getting stabbed, slashed and/or plain run over by the Rohirrim/Hurons/Ents, it doesn't really make sense.

Anyways, just to make it short and sweet for Nazgul (who's quite busy, apparantly), I would like it if the all Uruk-Hai units except Berserkers were made weaker in terms of health/armour and attack strength (if that differs among races) than dwarves and elite good units (like Fountain Guards and Lorien warriors); the Uruk-hai were a mass-produced force, after all, and their strength and thirst for blood can't make up for crappy, mass-produced armor and significantly less training than the forces of Good. However, this terrible armor and training would be faster to produce and cheaper too, so I would suggest lowering their cost and build times.

Also, I would like it if crossbowmen shot slowly, but their bolts were VERY strong. Obviously, however, this would probably be unnecessary work just for "movie-feel", so if you simply took the ideas above into consideration I would be very grateful. Thanks again, Nazgul, for your (and the other modder's) hard work on this awesome mod!

Some logical thoughts there. I'll take it into consideration

[I_AM_LEGEND]

Alright... well, here's my thoughts on Isengard forces, based on things I've seen in the movies as well as things I've read in my (film-based) book The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare, which I'm sure that everyone here including Naz must know about!

With regards to troop spamming - definately use half orcs. But limit them to a couple of units as Sauraman wouldn't really have had more then that in Isenguard or in Fangorn as his main focus was on perfecting the Uruk-Hai. I think a good unit to use for the half orcs would definately be EA's old Mordor Orc unit, as they all had the same skin tone and very little variation in weaponary, which would suit the kind of orcs that would have been found in Isenguard as Sauraman wouldn't have cared about making mega-strong armour or weapons for a couple of measly orcs when the resources would be needed for the Uruks. With regards to unit size and grouping, you should try and make the units disordered and have the orcs within each very prone to fighting each other if left to their own devices for too long. Half orcs should also be super weak, with little attack or armour capability. They should also be quite cheap to produce and reasonably fast to make.

My other suggestion is over the Uruk Scout units. I watched the Fellowship of the Ring recently and I noticed that the scouts carried four types of weapons in the film: Short swords (these were shorter then the swords used by the Uruks at Helm's Deep and more like cleavers in shape and design), normal Uruk Swords (like those used by the Uruks of Helm's Deep), Axes and Bows. Some of the uruks had shields and some didn't. Lurtz chose a normal Uruk sword as his weapon of choice as well as a shield and his bow, which was the same as the bows seen strapped to the backs of the scouts. Perhaps scout units can be made with varying weapon combinations and some with shields and some without as well as some with helmets and some without etc, as this would make the game more film-realistic? I know it would take quite a lot to do but this is a FILM mod, so I thought it would be neccesary... also maybe the scouts should have a toggle weapon ability so that they can switch between weapons and bows? It would make the game more even and make the scouts a more rounded unit. It would also allow Lurtz to fit in with them better, because when I watched Lurtz and the Uruks running towards Amon Hen in the film Lurtz did look like a seperate captain, but not as seperate as he appears in SEE, as he still looked like he shared the same rugged 'uniform' as all the other Uruk scouts. I also think that scouts, like the half orcs, should have a more disordered unit appearance rather then having them all ranked out like they're about to enter some great siege... it just doesn't fit the whole feel of the scouts.

On another note for the scouts (as if I haven't covered enough already! ) I think that they should be stronger and more bloodthirsty then normal Uruks, and have less armour/defences, but have better speed. Normal Uruks should be slower but have better defence/armour. They should also have less strength then the uruk scouts.

With regards to the Uruk Crossbowmen, I agree that they should fire slowly (with recoil) but have super-powerful bolts. They should have the same defences as normal Uruks.

Uruk Pikemen should be slower then normal Uruks (speedwise it should go Scouts > Crossbowmen > Swordsmen > Pikemen) as they have to carry those great long heavy pikes sticking out in front of them. Pikemen are essentially a defensive stance-type unit, used for blockades against oncoming Rohirrim or other horsemen of middle Earth. Pikemen should be super-strong against horsemen but weak against structures or normal warriors/archers.

Beserkers should have higher defences but their attack should stay the same.

Warg Riders should be faster, the fastest and strongest unit in the game (except for the elite Isengard Uruks) and should be able to knock riders off their horses when they charge into them (thinks of the Two Towers, when they run into the Rohirrim Guards and jump at them like wolves, knocking the riders off the horses so that they could bite their faces off). Because let's be realistic, the Warg Riders were never present at the battle of Helm's Deep and were not made to climb walls, they were meant to be a fast attack unit for picking off stragglers and weak peasants (they were sent to kill all the escaping Rohan 'peasants' in the Two Towers, they did not think they would be encountering horsemen, that was a surprise!).

Last but not least, the elite Uruk-Hai of Isengard should be the strongest but slowest of all Uruk units in the game, unable to be knocked down by horses and able to stand fast and tear apart any enemy units that come near them. They should also be able to level up a bit quicker then they do, to indicate their status better as Sauraman's best!

That's all from me, Naz! Hope I've gone into enough detail with all of this and explained it all properly for you as I don't want you getting confused by the amount of ideas I've included here, I just wanted to patch this whole mini-debate up is all.

Edit: Also, Naz, would it be possible to take the empty saddles off the back of the Isengard Fell Beasts because it looks really strange...

Edited by I_AM_LEGEND, 13 August 2008 - 04:32 AM.

[SovietSoldier]

good suggestions,but the warg riders only killed the soldiers of Rohan in the battle because they weren't really the rohirrim,they were protectors of theoden.

[Nazgûl]

@IAL: Your thought's are pretty much aligned with mine, so don't worry. About all of what you suggested is already in my head... It's just that balance is something that I won't do until all items and units have been added. I will work a lot on balance before 4.7 though... and much of that will apply then

I will also ask my Modelers to work further on the Scouts, as I have a better model for them now. We will give them various weapons and toggle to bow eventually. Unfortinately that will require us to use Lurt'z anims, which aren't that good...

Edited by Nazgûl, 13 August 2008 - 05:21 PM.

[Mordor Slayer]

About the Uruk crossbows: on one of the Extended Edition disks John Howe talks about those weapons and about the fact that they designed them so they could be reloaded very quickly. The design was based on a German 16th century (?) drawing, and allowed the wielder to just pull the string back quickly by using some sort of reload mechanism. So actually their rate-of-fire was pretty fast.

Edit: from Wikipedia:

Howe even created a less crude type of crossbow for the Uruk-hai (the first army approved), based on a 16th century manuscript.

They called it a pump-action crossbow. It can be compared to this: http://en.wikipedia....eating_crossbow

Edited by Mordor Slayer, 13 August 2008 - 03:43 PM.

[SovietSoldier]

they are called cho-ko-nu's.i remember that weapon.

[ttandchotmail]

G'day to all

I had a thought about the bomb carriers for the isenguard faction. These little guys can be seen a mile away and usually give the enemy the perfect opportunity to blow up your advancing armies before they reach them. The idea of giving this unit a stealth ability seemed way too much but what if the ability only worked when the unit was surronded by other urik's? And of course once the bomb was planted the bomb itself would be visible. Not sure how possible this is but worth a mention

[Arthadan]

About the Uruk crossbows: on one of the Extended Edition disks John Howe talks about those weapons and about the fact that they designed them so they could be reloaded very quickly. The design was based on a German 16th century (?) drawing, and allowed the wielder to just pull the string back quickly by using some sort of reload mechanism. So actually their rate-of-fire was pretty fast.

Edit: from Wikipedia:

Howe even created a less crude type of crossbow for the Uruk-hai (the first army approved), based on a 16th century manuscript.

They called it a pump-action crossbow. It can be compared to this: http://en.wikipedia....eating_crossbow

Yes, I think he tried to give them 16th century muskets, but Mr. Jackson thought it was enough gunpowder with the bombs. So Tolkienish...

And, as I said in the Dwarves thread, crossbows are a perfect nonsense in Middle earth because:
- Reloading time is far slower than a bow (unless you introduce 16th century weapons in ME, that is!).
- They have shorter range than bows.
- The only thing they are good for is piercing full heavy armours , but in the books none use them and on the movie only Gondorians use them, not Rohirrim.

So it's a perfect nonsense.

[Nazgûl]

G'day to all

I had a thought about the bomb carriers for the isenguard faction. These little guys can be seen a mile away and usually give the enemy the perfect opportunity to blow up your advancing armies before they reach them. The idea of giving this unit a stealth ability seemed way too much but what if the ability only worked when the unit was surronded by other urik's? And of course once the bomb was planted the bomb itself would be visible. Not sure how possible this is but worth a mention

VERY good idea! *noted*

[Lauri]

I don't like it... To OP in my opinion...
Just send your troops in first to slay whatever can harm your bombs, and keep them at a distance from each other, and other troops

[Nazgûl]

Well the problem is basically everything, at least with fire arrows. My bombs never reach their target. Espescially after Sul made them go off at 1 fire arrow. So you'd have to destroy the entire base before you send the bombs in. Makes it rather useless

[SovietSoldier]

can you do the same with a battering ram?

[Garrison Nomad]

WTF?? Rams don't need stealth; they're hard enough to kill as is...

Oh, and Arthadan, there were easily reloadable crossbows long before the sixteenth century...aka China. And besides, Middle-Earth doesn't consume a certain time frame from REAL history....it's all made up....at least, that's what YOU think....<_< >_>

[Nazgûl]

If I would do the same with Rams, I'd make them much easier to kill once spotted off course. I actually like the idea, since it's rather unrealistic atm, when they just keep walking like robocops with their ram

[Garrison Nomad]

If I would do the same with Rams, I'd make them much easier to kill once spotted off course. I actually like the idea, since it's rather unrealistic atm, when they just keep walking like robocops with their ram

Arg, curse my 1-dementional thinking! If they were massively weaker they'd be awesome to blend in....but it would have potential for some serious exploits.

[Nazgûl]

Hehe yeah, but the AI sometimes send 4-5 rams at a time and it's rather frustrating to shoot 100+ arrows on each before they go down. Realistically they're only 6 soldiers and not very well protected as they carry the ram. I'd say a few good hits should bring them down. But instead have them fully stealthed while in the vicinity of 2-3 hordes

[Garrison Nomad]

Hmm...

i really think the best way to go is to make the individual uruks targetable, but how it is with a horde, how everyone gets hit, depending on where the arrows go...it would take some reanimating, and no floating rams...but it's do-able. plus, you could have respawned uruks, like the way lost members of a horde respawn....

/thoughts.

[Arthadan]

Oh, and Arthadan, there were easily reloadable crossbows long before the sixteenth century...aka China. And besides, Middle-Earth doesn't consume a certain time frame from REAL history....it's all made up....at least, that's what YOU think....<_< >_>

Tolkien specifically pointed the Bayeux tapestry as a model for clothes and weapons used in ME, depicting Normand invasion of ENgland in 1066. No Chinese crossbows there

And no, I don't think "it's all made up". Tolkien had some well-documented influences as the Norse Eddas which, again, are not related with Asian culture at all and have a "mythologycal time frame", as they happen in Dark Ages Europe, well before Medieval complete armours and crossbows.

Besides, Tolkien's intention was create a rich mythology for the English people, because the few remaining fragments were not enough to his taste. So, neccesatily it must happen before our well-known written History, as all myths.

If you need Tolkien's quote for anything of what I have said, please tell me.