14 replies to this topic

[Casen]

Why do liberals always side with the Muslims/Palestinians exactly?

Israel is the most liberal country in the middle east. There is little gender discrimination, they have full rights for homosexuals, its the most progressive country there, it has a secular government where you can have any religion you want. Why do Liberals hate it? In Palestine they consider homosexuals traitors because they associate them with Israel. In some cases they are killed. Don't believe me?

http://en.wikipedia....ights_in_Israel - Read the Palestinian Issues section.

But this also confuses me in the sense that the Neo-Conservative right in my country supports the Israelis. These are the same people who are trying to uphold conservative Christian values which are very similar to the values of most Muslim countries.

Ann Coulter actually pointed this out. Mind you guys I hate her and I think she is the real life equivalent to a forum troll, but she sadly made a point, although she used it to make liberals look like hypocrites rather than to defend liberal social issues of course, like I am.

This has been one of the things bugging me ALOT lately and upsetting me...

[Ash]

Why is it liberals specifically? Why are liberals even a box by which people can be categorised? Is that the hate-brand given to 'anyone who thinks people deserve a bit of freedom and equality'?

And why do you even use anything Ann Coulter says as evidence? That alone renders any argument you might put forward completely null and void.

Either way, the reason anyone might side with Palestine is not because of ideology, but perhaps because, oh I don't know, Israel sent an army across the border and started blowing shit up? I mean, yknow, that was a year ago. And as far as I'm aware they're still there, still blowing Palestine back BEYOND the stone age.

That is what people are opposed to. This stupid shit about the Gaza strip and whatever other bits of landgrabbing both parties seem to want. That Israel is the open aggressor is what has people riled. On the flip side, you've got Palestinian suicide bombers causing merry hell, which is part of why Israel went in.

But yknow what? Blame the media's look at it. It isn't "liberals" or whatever meaningless word you decide to throw at people ('anyone who sides with muslims is a liberal' or whatever slant you're trying to put on it), it's the way the media slants it.

[Casen]

Problem is the way I see it they are attacking people with a poor social issue record.

I should tell you I'm very liberal on social issues but conservative on economic issues.

Also I am extremist in my beliefs, so...somehow I don't really feel bad about Palestinians getting killed. Call me cruel and heartless, but I can't help but feel like they deserve it. Granted thats not the reason the Israeli's are killing them, I guess I just see it as Karma biting the Muslims back...

Also when Muslims claim Israel hates Muslims its just not accurate. If they did, Muslims wouldn't even be allowed in Israel. They are allowed to live there. There is even a Muslim or more in the Israeli government.

The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is more about territory than religion. Its not "We're killing you because your Muslim." its more like "We're killing you because your there/in our way." Principally that doesn't make it right but it's why it confuses me why EVERY MUSLIM ON EARTH sides with Palestine and takes it personally. I mean Christians typically don't feel for other Christians in that sense.

It wouldn't make a difference if the Palestinians were Muslims or not.

[Ash]

Your opening sentence, "Why do liberals always side with the Muslims/Palestinians exactly?" sort of pins being a muslim at the crux of the issue.

Nobody deserves to be killed over a landgrab. Except the dick who authorised it. Not the soldiers, and certainly not the innocent civilians. Israel were the primary aggressor. So by what notion do you figure Palestinians deserve to die?

[Verrückt]

The Isreali Governemnt is full of a bunch of land-hungry whores, stealing and pillaging the land that belongs to the palistinians, that's why.

Edited by Verrückt, 28 July 2007 - 11:31 PM.

[Casen]

Its bad karma attacking the Muslims back for refusing to liberalize their society. Their worse than the fundamentalist Christians in my country.

[duke_Qa]

so basically "didnt we tell you to become more like us? oh well, its about time that we get that land you've been hogging for your inferior ways."

sure, there are plenty of idiots in Islam, but theres no wonder they become "idiots" if we continue to abuse their trust and goodwill.

[Casen]

They've been backwards, behind, and conservative before Israel even existed its not our fault.

[Casen]

Actually I'm atheist and I come from a Protestant/Christian background.

[Verrückt]

what the bloody hell does he mean by Jude? Does he mean jew? Because he is just being a racist prick.

[duke_Qa]

bleh, jude is a more Germanic/Scandinavian way of writing jew i guess. sounds like some immature dude wanting to be provocative by reciting some words he read in some neo-nazi website.

jews as a cultural group has never really done nothing to me. plenty of liberal and/or atheistic jews in the states for example.

Judaism is over with Islam in my eyes. i don't see alot of it and its filled with old men claiming calamities will befall those who doesn't follow the "true" god.

people who live in Israel and have done nothing to try to improve the problems for the Palestinians, be they fundamentalistic jews or right wingers or zionists, are the ones i despise the most of all.

though the irony is that Israel is a sort of mirror of the western world. we have the power and we have the resources, and we don't really do anything to stop that. to blame Israel for being a occupying country is the same as claiming capitalism and the west is abusing the world.

[Verrückt]

There is a big diffrence between a jew and Zionist IMHO. Zionists make me vomit, Jews are no diffrent that Christains and people should learn to accept them into society.

As Isreali's are diffrent from jews in the USA or in Europe.

[MSpencer]

Both sides on the Palestinian issue are wrong. On one side, you have a lot of progressive politicians who have inherited a very European view of social issues from their parent nations and who have had to contend with claims from all surrounding nations on their sovereignty, but you also have a large power base which believe the only way to forge onwards in peace is to subdue the opposition. It has been that way in every major nation, largely around the first half of the 20th century for the European nations and the United States, but Israel has slipped into this phase by virtue of being besieged. Yes, they offer basic social freedoms (Israeli laws regarding most aspects of society are extremely liberal and really provide a stark contrast with the increasing stringency of American laws), but the conservative wings of the jingo nationalist eagle tend to always be in charge, and thus Israel, while being a very socially liberal place, sees the Palestinians occasionally as a threat, and the surrounding nations as nothing but potential enemies. They can't be blamed...

The Palestinians, who have never really had a chance to have a human rights record in the seat of power of a real government, and who have been through enough leadership changes since Arafat to successfully cloud their real beliefs, see Israel as illegal occupiers. In a way, this is true. Palestine was occupied by the British after the death of the Ottoman Empire, and of course, after the Arab Revolts of the 1930s and World War II, Britain created Israel in the place of Palestine. At this time, the population was largely Palestinian, and while Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, and Egypt all got independence from the shards of the Ottoman Empire (All at different times of course: Turkey immediately after, Syria and Lebanon after the fall of France in 1940, Iraq since World War I, and Jordan, Kuwait and Egypt at about the same time as Israel), Palestine, a largely unified country which certainly should have had the right for self-determination along with the others, was turned into Israel and Jews were told they had a homeland. Well... it was Palestinian first, and they can't be blamed for not wanting to leave the area. They were essentially promised independence after the Arab Revolts of the 1930s, and all indications were that after the Axis menace was destroyed, the Palestinians would have complete autonomy. This happened everywhere else in the Middle East, but the right to self-determination for the Palestinians was replaced with the creation of the Israeli state. It's not odd that they're pissed, in fact, it would be odd if they were not.

The reasons why I empathize with the Palestinians should be clear. They have a fundamental right to self-determination, and they clearly want control over their country. Both they and the Israelis have legitimate claims to the area, but I concede that Israel is the logical choice to keep control over the area. If both sides would come to the table, a bi-national government could possibly work, with a one unified cabinet and a unified parliament, or perhaps two parliaments and two cabinets, each representing Israeli and Palestinian interests and working together under the same flag, ultimately answering to the same civil authority of a single, executive bi-national cabinet. I only side with the Palestinians because the Israeli dismissal of them as a minor insurgency, like they have no valid claim, is ridiculous and oppressive. If roles were reversed, I would side with the Israelis as well. They both have valid claims to the land, and both should be respected.

[Casen]

Judaism is over with Islam in my eyes. i don't see alot of it and its filled with old men claiming calamities will befall those who doesn't follow the "true" god.

I'm having trouble figuring out this statement but never in my life has a Jew tried to convert me or tell me I'm going to hell for being an atheist.

Hell they don't even believe in hell.

Unless I'm reading your sentence wrong and your referring to Islam. Its just a confusing sentence.

[Soul]

I deleted that rude guest post.