127 replies to this topic

[IIS]

Where in the books does it say "Dwarves have weaker armour than Men"? From TTT: "There was no hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corselet forged beneath the Mountain in the North". That's pretty definitive, I think. This also isn't a mithril hauberk - consider Gimli's reaction upon seeing Frodo's coat.

It does not say that, because if it said it would have ment that men on average had better armor - which is absurd, dwarven armor was probably the best on average - I'm talking about 1 particular kindom here, decendants of Numenor, strongest men race in the thrd age!
Well, dude you said it yourself - in EDORAS - what does Edoras has to do with Gondor? Moreover, Gimpli was not an average dwarf Soldier he was the Noble relative of the king, so I am pretty sure he would not have an average armor...

The argument of plate against chain also isn't always valid - chain and plate have different uses. I can move significantly faster and with a better range of motion in chain than in plate, I could dodge more easily... sure, if there's an arrow headed for my chest plate will be better, but in terms of actual combat they depends on troop role.

Dissagree - speed is going to be the same - as difference in weight is no more than 3 kgs. Better range of motion yes - but useless against a fully armed dude, the range not going to be significantly different either. The only good point is easier dodging, but I would prefer less agility especially if I'm naturally more agile (humans were more agile than dwarves) in terms of 1 on 1 combat. When it comes to mass fights - it will be hard not to get hit - so again plate armor wins - most of the cases it does. The only time when it does not is when you have to be stealthy and sneaky...

It could also be construed that Gondor's smithing was in decline just by looking at the case of the Numenorian steel cored bow, which would require significant smithing skill to make, which no longer exists in Gondor. The general form of "war = technology" that is present in the modern world doesn't apply in LOTR - if so surely the Elves, having fought Morgoth for thousands of years, would have such awesome technology. You'd also have to consider that the men of Gondor have not been fighting wars for all of the Third Age - where the WoTR era the first major battles took place during the retaking of Osgiliath. Anything else was just skirmishing. The experience of any troops that fought in the Balchoth invasion for example does not count - those men are long dead. Dwarves have similar experiences - we know of War of Goblins and Dwarves, of Balin's attempt to retake Moria, of the Battle of Five Armies, of the generally large Orc population of the Grey Mountains... these actually apply, because some of the Dwarves that fought there are still alive.

Bow and armor - different technology - Gondorians became shorter and could not use a steel bow as well as their ancestors could so they came to a reasonable sollution. Have to dissagree here - elves are immortal - therefore the way they learn skills is different to humen ways - they are happy with what they have and can, they care more about nature, when men are greeeedy to good armor and technology, Moreover, they actually improved when fighting Morgoth, but that was a long time ago and in the 3rd age they were more or less living piecefully. Here you absolutely right - but skirmishing is the one that counts - they had constant training as they knew the threat they were living under - constant engagement with even small batalions of enemies is a great experience, which is better than one huge single battle! Remember Boromir's line: " ... all of your lands are kept safe by the blood of our people!" The only engagements dwarves had included goblins and sometimes orcs... With all the respect to dwarven races.
By the way dude respect! Always nice to talk to someone who actually knows stuff he is talking about and respects his opponent;-)

I accept that challenge Name your weapon

Sword is good for me, you can pick any weapon you want...

Actually, This might be getting off topic. Gondor did not by itself fight all 5 of those nations. Rohan, and other gondorians fom the southern fiefdoms came. So did some dunedain. I do not know if the Dunedain, and the SF made a difference, because both together had around 1,000 together counting how skilled they were loke the men of dol amroth were very skilled as were the dunedain. They only made 1,000.

Of cause it did not, yet this is still a huge credit to Gondor. Moreover, most of the time they did it themselves... Only in the cases of huge need they asked for help. And what do you mean other Gondorians from the South??? Are not they Gondorians? Dunedain kinda surved Gondor after Arnor was pretty much destroyed and only small parts of it existed...

On topic: the dwarves did repair the Minas Tirith gate. As did the elves of Mirkwood which made the city look greener. Also Ithilien. Did I mention the dwarves also fixed the walls of Minas Tirith. So I think basically they are the same.

This is not really what I'm talking about, I'm kinda talking about armor and fighting skills, but yes you r right.

[cahik_]

nah no way gondor armor > dwarven armor. just face that fact. i cant give better proofs then those that were given before.

if go into details about numenorien blood we can start thinking about numenorien genes being degressive to human ones. that would mean that even halfnumenorian would loose most of his numenorian characteristics the way how it is represent in books i would say that numenorian characteristics were pretty rare in gondor during late 3rd age.

[IIS]

I think whenever the topic creator states "going by/read the book" he actually means "going by/read the movie-based book titled 'Weapons and Warfare'" instead of any of the books written by the Professor or his son. He seems to be basing his claims off WETA Workshop's concepts, i.e. "Gondorians are the third/fourth best archers in Middle-earth behind the Ithilien Rangers, the Rangers of the North and the Elves."
Which can be observed in the arrow-range graph and certain passages detailing the Gondorian arsenal in the previously mentioned book.

As well as the claim about plate-armoured Gondorians in the books, which he will probably support by saying "Imrahil wore a vambrace in RotK."

In RotK Knights of Dol Amroth have emblem of Gondor on their coats instead of Swan of Dol Amroth - what shows how much attention creators of the game actually paid... Which is not a lot.
I'm drawing my arguements from both WETA claims and TLOTR books. Imrahil is not really an example I'm trying to focus on, since he is not a Gondorian soldier or even general, he is prince of Dol Amroth and that is kinda different...

North Misty Mountains - Do you mean Orcs? Because all Dwarven holds in the entire Misty Mountain range (Gundabad and Moria being the main ones) were taken over by Orcs. Those Mountain Orcs probably wore very serviceable but ragged (and weak compared to the Dwarves) armour made from scavenged dwarven material or metals which they mined themselves.

Wrong, there are few places in Misty Mountains - not all of them had significance of Moria or Gundabad, but some of them remained under dwarven control.

White Mountains - Let's see, the Orcs there were wiped out in King Folca's time, and the Rohirrim, Gondorians, Dunlendings and Druedain lived in the dales and foothills, not in the Mountains themselves. There are the Dead Men of Dunharrow, but their armour is nowhere detailed in the canon books. Or do you mean the Dwarves of Aglarond who colonised the Glittering Caves only after the War? If so, most probably the same armour from Erebor.

That is my bet I actually ment Blue mountains - just mixed them up...

Wildmen of North? Who are those? Dunlendings? Balcoth/Wainrider remnants? Rogue Northmen? Those axe-wielding swarthy Dwarf-like men who people usually interpret as Variags?

Pretty much Dunlendings, but I ment to include all of them under the one category as none of them were of great significance...
Thank you for your comments...

nah no way gondor armor > dwarven armor. just face that fact. i cant give better proofs then those that were given before.

if go into details about numenorien blood we can start thinking about numenorien genes being degressive to human ones. that would mean that even halfnumenorian would loose most of his numenorian characteristics the way how it is represent in books i would say that numenorian characteristics were pretty rare in gondor during late 3rd age.

Yes way - and this can be easily seen in the desing and parts the armor consisted of: as I said dwarves often had a simple chainmail, when Gondorian soldier had a fully plated armor. Yes, there is no doubts Gondorians lost a lot of their Numenorean characteristics, yet they remained the main force of the West!

[Nertea]

I'll not really comment on that first bit, as I'm not a history major and don't feel like relying on Wikipedia, but I'll make a few notes:
-Are we debating book or movies? Usually I go with "book, but if movies can be used without contradiction they're in too"
-If we are, then the whole plate armour thing is useless, because Gondorian troops had chainmail hauberks with surcoats. Stated in RoTK I believe, the movie contradicts so it's out.
-IMO Rohan was the strongest kingdom on the field in the Third Age, but you can go with Gondor if you like
-Dale probably had excellent armour, due to living in close harmony with the dwarves of Erebor both before and after Smaug. They'd probably have picked up a thing or two from the dwarves
-Gondor and Arnor - one completely destroyed, one in decline. I believe there's even a line in the Appendices stating when Gondor was at the peak of its power, and it's not at the end of the Third Age
-It's been ~4000 years since Numenor sank, so even saying lifespan was at 200 years the whole time, that's at least 20 generations. Say 2 of them married non-numies. you get 1/4 blood children by then end... and more importantly presumably they breed as well, so you get marriages of 1/2 and 1/4... the blood is going to be far more than 1/5 Numenorian. If that 1/5th guy marries a single northman, all of a sudden it's 1/10th! 1/50th is not unreasonable, I believe.

It does not say that, because if it said it would have ment that men on average had better armor - which is absurd, dwarven armor was probably the best on average - I'm talking about 1 particular kindom here, decendants of Numenor, strongest men race in the thrd age!
Well, dude you said it yourself - in EDORAS - what does Edoras has to do with Gondor? Moreover, Gimpli was not an average dwarf Soldier he was the Noble relative of the king, so I am pretty sure he would not have an average armor...

Edoras... "in all the hoards of Edoras".... so in all the treasuries and suits of ancient armour, ceremonial garb of the sons of Eorl, there was no piece of armour to match Gimli's (who is in no way related to Dain Ironfoot, or Thorin Oakenshield) coat of mail. A perhaps slightly above average coat of mail, due to Gloin being an important figure.
It's also a well accepted argument that Gondor supplied the Rohirrim with armour in exchange for horses. So, the comparison is valid - essentially the best armour of Edoras should be at least equal to the average armour of Gondor.

Dissagree - speed is going to be the same - as difference in weight is no more than 3 kgs. Better range of motion yes - but useless against a fully armed dude, the range not going to be significantly different either. The only good point is easier dodging, but I would prefer less agility especially if I'm naturally more agile (humans were more agile than dwarves) in terms of 1 on 1 combat. When it comes to mass fights - it will be hard not to get hit - so again plate armor wins - most of the cases it does. The only time when it does not is when you have to be stealthy and sneaky...

It also wins when you're firing a bow, when you're riding a light horse, when you want to travel light, when you want to travel long distances, when you want to take it off rapidly, when you want to be able to get up after falling over... (ok that one's a bit joking)

Bow and armor - different technology - Gondorians became shorter and could not use a steel bow as well as their ancestors could so they came to a reasonable sollution.

Whaaa? you can't use a steel cored bow if you are short? Maybe a longbow, but just steel cored is no different than a standard one, except it probably takes more strength to draw. Bow and armour are different technology, but here I'm talking about the core itself, which relates to forging, and likely requires a great deal of precision to provide an even draw. Take the arbalest for example - it's steel cored (or full steel) and didn't evolve until significantly later than crossbows. You could say that they're higher tech then - and therefore Gondor has actually lost forging tech if they don't make these any more.

Have to dissagree here - elves are immortal - therefore the way they learn skills is different to humen ways - they are happy with what they have and can, they care more about nature, when men are greeeedy to good armor and technology, Moreover, they actually improved when fighting Morgoth, but that was a long time ago and in the 3rd age they were more or less living piecefully.

Yeah... and? The Men were around in the First Age too, and they fought Morgoth for almost as long as the Elves and still didn't best them in armour and weapons technology. It proves my point - that evolution because of war does not happen in the LOTR world.

Here you absolutely right - but skirmishing is the one that counts - they had constant training as they knew the threat they were living under - constant engagement with even small batalions of enemies is a great experience, which is better than one huge single battle!

I'm doubtful that the Gondorians rotated all their men into and out of the Ithilien Rangers, who were the only troops doing any skirmishing in Gondor.

The only engagements dwarves had included goblins and sometimes orcs... With all the respect to dwarven races.

So fighting savage and relatively feral Orcs in their own warrens in the dark of the northern mountains was easy? As compared to springing ambushes on supply columns headed to Mordor of course. (I can pull quotes on this if you like )

By the way dude respect! Always nice to talk to someone who actually knows stuff he is talking about and respects his opponent;-)

I always respect my debate opponents... though the implication that I don't actually know my stuff is unsettling, I'll let it pass.

ooh more!

Wrong, there are few places in Misty Mountains - not all of them had significance of Moria or Gundabad, but some of them remained under dwarven control.

Names and Quotes Please. I consider myself rather an authority on Dwarves, and I'd always welcome a chance to expand my knowledge!

Yes way - and this can be easily seen in the desing and parts the armor consisted of: as I said dwarves often had a simple chainmail, when Gondorian soldier had a fully plated armor. Yes, there is no doubts Gondorians lost a lot of their Numenorean characteristics, yet they remained the main force of the West!

I'm actually wondering all of a sudden where all this dwarves only had chainmail stuff comes from - Gimli had elaborate interlinking shoulder plates made of hexagonal scales. Those are also only his travelling clothes. We've actually never seen a movie "warrior" dwarf - the kings' garb in the Prologue also isn't indicative. For all we know (by the movies), they had intricately crafted Gothic fullplate. Judging an entire race by their travelling clothes is silly - example Boromir - movies he's chain and leather all the way. Is this representative of Gondor's army as represented by the movie? Not in the slightest!

[IIS]

Here is some visual stuff I found - http://uk.games-work...s/art-balin.jpg typical scale chainmail armor with some strenthening on sides etc. And this is not a tipical dwarf fighter - this is Balin! Although its only an art, it should create a visual picture for you guys to compare: http://img-nex.theon...rapbook/877.jpg
Here Godorian soldier gets wasted - but it his armor is seen clearely:
http://img-nex.theon.../15282_orig.jpg

[IIS]

I'll not really comment on that first bit, as I'm not a history major and don't feel like relying on Wikipedia, but I'll make a few notes:
-Are we debating book or movies? Usually I go with "book, but if movies can be used without contradiction they're in too"
-If we are, then the whole plate armour thing is useless, because Gondorian troops had chainmail hauberks with surcoats. Stated in RoTK I believe, the movie contradicts so it's out.
-IMO Rohan was the strongest kingdom on the field in the Third Age, but you can go with Gondor if you like
-Dale probably had excellent armour, due to living in close harmony with the dwarves of Erebor both before and after Smaug. They'd probably have picked up a thing or two from the dwarves
-Gondor and Arnor - one completely destroyed, one in decline. I believe there's even a line in the Appendices stating when Gondor was at the peak of its power, and it's not at the end of the Third Age
-It's been ~4000 years since Numenor sank, so even saying lifespan was at 200 years the whole time, that's at least 20 generations. Say 2 of them married non-numies. you get 1/4 blood children by then end... and more importantly presumably they breed as well, so you get marriages of 1/2 and 1/4... the blood is going to be far more than 1/5 Numenorian. If that 1/5th guy marries a single northman, all of a sudden it's 1/10th! 1/50th is not unreasonable, I believe

Tey had a cuirass and pouldrouns on top of that chain mail - it changes in the book from chain mail to plate armor, smotimes athor calls plate armor by the name of chain mail. P.S. We debating both books and movies :-)
Rohan was not the strongest kingdom on the field in the end of the third age - it was strong as a kindom, and Gondor was weak - yet weak Gondor was still stronger than strong Rohan.
Man of Dale had light armor, not sure what happened after relationship with dwarves, but I believe you right, yet dwarven armor was probably still better.
Arnor was not completely destroyed - there were still some towns free protected by Dunedain, rangers and own old Arnor forces that survived. But yes you are right it was pretty much destroyed :-)
I'd be more positive and say about 1|20 of Numenorian blood remained in average Gondorian, yet i agree I was wrong when i said that it was 1|5. Actually I admit I made a mistake here.
Now about Gimli - it was simply author’s exaggeration, just like when he mentioned that Gendalf could probably handle all of the nine nazguls himself. Now here is the proof for this: Uruk broke Gimli’s helm in half on Gimli’s head, if armor was so great it would hold the blow.
Moreover, Rohan bought materials from Gondor, and were making armor themselves, never heard of them actually buying any kind of plate armor only chainmails, which again could have been plate armor as author did not really pay huge attention to specification of armor kind. Gimli is of a royal blood since his cusin proclaimed himself as the king of Khazad Dum. Anyways his armor should have been better than average and not slightly but quiet a bit ;-)

It also wins when you're firing a bow, when you're riding a light horse, when you want to travel light, when you want to travel long distances, when you want to take it off rapidly, when you want to be able to get up after falling over... (ok that one's a bit joking)

LOL you absolutely right :-) Except it is not that significant when you firing a bow, as long as you don't ride a horse at the same time, this is so far from the topic - which is the discussion of dwarven|gondorian armor superiority))) Dwarves did not really ride or fired bow much - long distance travel: yes :-)

Whaaa? you can't use a steel cored bow if you are short? Maybe a longbow, but just steel cored is no different than a standard one, except it probably takes more strength to draw. Bow and armour are different technology, but here I'm talking about the core itself, which relates to forging, and likely requires a great deal of precision to provide an even draw. Take the arbalest for example - it's steel cored (or full steel) and didn't evolve until significantly later than crossbows. You could say that they're higher tech then - and therefore Gondor has actually lost forging tech if they don't make these any more.

They improved their armory skills! The fact they did not make an iron bow anymore - cos it was uncomfortable for them to use. Arbelest or crossbow are slow to recharge. Moreover, they are different to armor development technology. Did you know that Russians came up with crossbows first? They still did not stop the Great Golden Horde, and considered their crossbows pretty useless. Same thing happened few decades later in the century war between English and French, when French crossbowmen got wasted by English bowmen.

I'm doubtful that the Gondorians rotated all their men into and out of the Ithilien Rangers, who were the only troops doing any skirmishing in Gondor.

Of cause they did not - but you are so wrong the rangers were not the only ones doing skirmishing - they were the ones engaging in the south and the north forests, yet with the small attacks all over Gondorian towns and villages Miltia always required help of Gondorian regular army! City of Osgiliath was another place for that kind of engagements constantly being battled for.

So fighting savage and relatively feral Orcs in their own warrens in the dark of the northern mountains was easy? As compared to springing ambushes on supply columns headed to Mordor of course. (I can pull quotes on this if you like )

LOL ))) Good point, yet I am sure Goblins are probably the easiest opponent you could get and it was not only supplies caravans Gondorians were fighting - small attacks on Gondorian towns happened all over the country and these were not goblin attacks.

I always respect my debate opponents... though the implication that I don't actually know my stuff is unsettling, I'll let it pass.

No implication or sarcasm - you actually a pretty good opponent ;-) I am serious, but I will make my point through, as my friend says No mata WOT! ;-) hopefully)))

Names and Quotes Please. I consider myself rather an authority on Dwarves, and I'd always welcome a chance to expand my knowledge!

Gundabad, Moria or Khazad-dûm, along with other places in the Misty Mountains were the places of Dwarven homes. - Well it goes something like that - I did not really dig in for the names and locations of other places, and don't remember the quote by heart either, but pretty sure I read this info in Silmallirion.

I'm actually wondering all of a sudden where all this dwarves only had chain mail stuff comes from - Gimli had elaborate interlinking shoulder plates made of hexagonal scales. Those are also only his travelling clothes. We've actually never seen a movie "warrior" dwarf - the kings' garb in the Prologue also isn't indicative. For all we know (by the movies), they had intricately crafted Gothic full plate. Judging an entire race by their traveling clothes is silly - example Boromir - movies he's chain and leather all the way. Is this representative of Gondor's army as represented by the movie? Not in the slightest!

Boromir has full armor in extended versions ;-) Yeah, well I am drawing the arguments from the books, where it says that dwarves had great mail armor that many could only wish for or something like that... And of cause movies, where visually we can see an advantage of Gondorian armor ;-)
Good point there are no dwarf warriors in the movie - I was actually pretty disappointed; yet, there is art dedicated to Lord of the Rings, it gives us some of the info ;-)

[Dain Ironfoot]

Really? how about you wear chainmail and I wear plate armor - both of us will have same weaponы and we will fight? You think you will stand a chance?

I accept that challenge Name your weapon

I name my weapon Basil.

[IIS]

Really? how about you wear chainmail and I wear plate armor - both of us will have same weaponы and we will fight? You think you will stand a chance?

I accept that challenge Name your weapon

I name my weapon Basil.

In that case I would take morning star :-)

[Radspakr Wolfbane]

Using games workshop is not a valid example because this not from the books or movies.

[Nertea]

Tey had a cuirass and pouldrouns on top of that chain mail - it changes in the book from chain mail to plate armor, smotimes athor calls plate armor by the name of chain mail. P.S. We debating both books and movies :-)

O....K... They had chainmail with black surcoats. That contradicts the half plate they wear in the movies. Therefore the only have chainmail. It's elementary, my dear Watson.

Rohan was not the strongest kingdom on the field in the end of the third age - it was strong as a kindom, and Gondor was weak - yet weak Gondor was still stronger than strong Rohan.

They had more than six thousand cavalry. On an open plain that's going to be a huge force to be reckoned with.

Arnor was not completely destroyed - there were still some towns free protected by Dunedain, rangers and own old Arnor forces that survived. But yes you are right it was pretty much destroyed :-)

I don't thing Bree and the Shire count as remains of Arnor. Heck, the king of Arnor was hiding in Rivendell for a good deal of his life and the 30 troops that came with Halbarad were all that could be gathered in any good time.

Now about Gimli - it was simply author’s exaggeration, just like when he mentioned that Gendalf could probably handle all of the nine nazguls himself. Now here is the proof for this: Uruk broke Gimli’s helm in half on Gimli’s head, if armor was so great it would hold the blow.

But Gimli didnt get his head smashed in - the helmet broke but protected him - isn't that the point of armour? Most armour tends to break and dent when it gets

Moreover, Rohan bought materials from Gondor, and were making armor themselves, never heard of them actually buying any kind of plate armor only chainmails, which again could have been plate armor as author did not really pay huge attention to specification of armor kind. Gimli is of a royal blood since his cusin proclaimed himself as the king of Khazad Dum. Anyways his armor should have been better than average and not slightly but quiet a bit ;-)

Oh, so his Long Dead cousin who died in Moria and was king for a couple months at most, dying many kilometres from the nearest dwarven forge. That entitles him to better armour? "Hey, my cousin went off and died a couple months ago, but he did proclaim himself king before it. Mind forging me some crazy armour?"
Regarding Rohan's armour: I'll get quotes. I don't have UT here now, so if someone would oblige me it would be nice, but I'll find it anyways.

Of cause they did not - but you are so wrong the rangers were not the only ones doing skirmishing - they were the ones engaging in the south and the north forests, yet with the small attacks all over Gondorian towns and villages Miltia always required help of Gondorian regular army! City of Osgiliath was another place for that kind of engagements constantly being battled for.

Go and read the appendices re. Osgiliath. It wasn't like the movies - it was a watchful, wary silence except for the attacks that took the city and Boromir retaking it.
Gondor didn't deploy troops to defend its southern cities either - such is shown by the lack of troops when Aragorn heads down there, and by the reluctance of the fiefdoms to send troops - because they needed them for defence against the "threat" of the black ships, not because there were bands of Orcs skirmishing around.

They improved their armory skills! The fact they did not make an iron bow anymore - cos it was uncomfortable for them to use. Arbelest or crossbow are slow to recharge. Moreover, they are different to armor development technology. Did you know that Russians came up with crossbows first? They still did not stop the Great Golden Horde, and considered their crossbows pretty useless. Same thing happened few decades later in the century war between English and French, when French crossbowmen got wasted by English bowmen.

And yet the crossbow still prevailed because of how easy it was to train someone to use... how exactly can you say that they improved their armouring skills? Unless I get a reasoned argument and preferrably some quotes, I can't concede this point. And frankly, dumping a weapon because it's uncomfortable is silly, war is not meant to be all nice and fluffy.

Gundabad, Moria or Khazad-dûm, along with other places in the Misty Mountains were the places of Dwarven homes. - Well it goes something like that - I did not really dig in for the names and locations of other places, and don't remember the quote by heart either, but pretty sure I read this info in Silmallirion.

Gundabad: The largest Orc City of the North.
Khazad-Dum: No dwarves left here at all. Last dwarves that went there got killed
There aren't any others...

[Eldarion25]

And the sinking of Numenor almost destroyed the Numenorian line, the only survivors being the small group of those still loyal to the Valar. Therefore, the Numenorians would at least have 20 generations, each most likely with a normal human, considering the small amount of Numenorians of the opposite gender to marry. Therefore, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, 1/256, 1/512. That's only after marrying 9 normal humans to the line of Numenorians, so even if they were to marry a pure Numenorian, it would make little difference.

[IIS]

Using games workshop is not a valid example because this not from the books or movies.

The workshops are based on movies and books - so its pretty dam good reference...

[IIS]

And the sinking of Numenor almost destroyed the Numenorian line, the only survivors being the small group of those still loyal to the Valar. Therefore, the Numenorians would at least have 20 generations, each most likely with a normal human, considering the small amount of Numenorians of the opposite gender to marry. Therefore, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, 1/256, 1/512. That's only after marrying 9 normal humans to the line of Numenorians, so even if they were to marry a pure Numenorian, it would make little difference.

This is really pesimistic approach, I already explained why this kind of line development could not have happened.

[IIS]

O....K... They had chainmail with black surcoats. That contradicts the half plate they wear in the movies. Therefore the only have chainmail. It's elementary, my dear Watson.

Seriously, I think there is a bit of confusion going on here - it sounds like you talking about Gondorian militia not actual soldiers of Minath Tirith that are shown in the movie - please put out quotes and the pages that describes the Gondorian soldier armor.

They had more than six thousand cavalry. On an open plain that's going to be a huge force to be reckoned with.

Actually at the battle of Pelennor fields they had around 6000, so it could be more or less, but I presume the entire strenth of the kindom at that time was close to 8000. Compare to 15000 of Gondorian forces, who no doubt were better equipted and had 1200 Highnumenorians (half high elves half numenorian blooded) of Dol Amroth.
And against fully armed pikesmen - Rohirrim are going to be pretty useless, even if the odds are 1\2.

I don't thing Bree and the Shire count as remains of Arnor. Heck, the king of Arnor was hiding in Rivendell for a good deal of his life and the 30 troops that came with Halbarad were all that could be gathered in any good time.

I am pretty sure there were some other small tiny paces that remained, surviving the entire kindom devestation, not just bree and shire - they would have provided cover for the remaining rangers and scouts. It is quiet possible they even had its own militia.

But Gimli didnt get his head smashed in - the helmet broke but protected him - isn't that the point of armour? Most armour tends to break and dent when it gets

Did not he lost his consciousness? No doubt good armor, but not the best ;-) Great armor holds great blows or bounces them off or makes them slide off, without causing much damage ;-)

Oh, so his Long Dead cousin who died in Moria and was king for a couple months at most, dying many kilometres from the nearest dwarven forge. That entitles him to better armour? "Hey, my cousin went off and died a couple months ago, but he did proclaim himself king before it. Mind forging me some crazy armour?"
Regarding Rohan's armour: I'll get quotes. I don't have UT here now, so if someone would oblige me it would be nice, but I'll find it anyways.

Nobody knew that he was dead :-) Gendalf suspected that ))) And yeah, I recon he would say something like that :-) Or at least would get something decent for himself ))) Yeah quotes would be good and please if you can get some quotes of Gondorian soldier discription, because I think there is some kind of misunderstanding growing here...

Go and read the appendices re. Osgiliath. It wasn't like the movies - it was a watchful, wary silence except for the attacks that took the city and Boromir retaking it.
Gondor didn't deploy troops to defend its southern cities either - such is shown by the lack of troops when Aragorn heads down there, and by the reluctance of the fiefdoms to send troops - because they needed them for defence against the "threat" of the black ships, not because there were bands of Orcs skirmishing around.

There were evil troops that constantly bothered Gondor's borders all the time - and it was not only rangers that defended those. Otherways you right, I was refering to the movies, mentioning constant fights in Osgiliath - I thought in this case movies were more relevant to the games.

And yet the crossbow still prevailed because of how easy it was to train someone to use... how exactly can you say that they improved their armouring skills? Unless I get a reasoned argument and preferrably some quotes, I can't concede this point. And frankly, dumping a weapon because it's uncomfortable is silly, war is not meant to be all nice and fluffy.

What do you mean silly? If you cant use it due to the lack of hight? Why not change it something more comfortable that will be causing more damage in combat. I'd rather use normal bow than one made of steel, I'd say due to my lack of Numenorian blood:-) No but seriously dumping strong weapon for something weaker but more comfortable - is an improvement: Russian forces changed their all mighty AK 47 to AK 74 due to the weight, loosing all that mighty power AK 47 had - here is an example from modern life.
Moreover, crossbow will not prevail - it will be waste of time: 5 bow shots = 1 crossbow shot (time) power is probably 2.5\1-crossbow\bow, again it all depends on other many factors.
I'll get some quotes, just so freaking don't want to dig in, but since you insist :-) However, you would have to wait ;-)

Gundabad: The largest Orc City of the North.
Khazad-Dum: No dwarves left here at all. Last dwarves that went there got killed
There aren't any others...

Gundabad - the place of Durin the Deathless awekening and therefore Homeland to all the dwarves. It was sacred to them, although taken by orcs few times, dwarves managed to take it back. However, Mount Gundabad remained as one of the main orcs strongholds from the beginning of the 3rd age, orcs took back with the growth of Agmar. However, after The Dwarves and Orcs War, I think, Goblins took control over it - don't really remember.
Yes, there are other places in Misty Mountains - you making me dig in again:-( I will do so, but its going to take some time...

[Nertea]

Seriously, I think there is a bit of confusion going on here - it sounds like you talking about Gondorian militia not actual soldiers of Minath Tirith that are shown in the movie - please put out quotes and the pages that describes the Gondorian soldier armor.

Page 84 of my copy (which is split into 7 books), in the Siege of Gondor chapter, of Pippin's garb: "he had a small hauberk, its rings forged of steel maybe, but black as jet. [...] Above the mail was a short surcoat of black". This is the outfit of the soldiers of Gondor, more specifically the Guard of the White Tower: "The guards of the gate were robed in black [..] surcoats."

Clear enough for me.

Actually at the battle of Pelennor fields they had around 6000, so it could be more or less, but I presume the entire strenth of the kindom at that time was close to 8000. Compare to 15000 of Gondorian forces, who no doubt were better equipted and had 1200 Highnumenorians (half high elves half numenorian blooded) of Dol Amroth.
And against fully armed pikesmen - Rohirrim are going to be pretty useless, even if the odds are 1\2.

Oh my. They had Half-Elven High Numenorians. How? Where? 1200?
Ok, I did say I'd be civil, but that's just stupid. It really is.
And I'd like to point out that there's no indication of pikemen in existence anywhere in Middle-Earth in the books.

I am pretty sure there were some other small tiny paces that remained, surviving the entire kindom devestation, not just bree and shire - they would have provided cover for the remaining rangers and scouts. It is quiet possible they even had its own militia.

the Rangers seem to have been based out of Rivendell, not out of random havens. Arnor never had many cities in its heyday, and none of the are more than rubble.

Did not he lost his consciousness? No doubt good armor, but not the best ;-) Great armor holds great blows or bounces them off or makes them slide off, without causing much damage ;-)

If he'd lost conciousness, he'd probably be dead. Still no basis of comparison. You don't know how an equivalent Gondorian helm would stand up to a similar blow - you can't just say that one will, because you don't know the characteristics of the blow at all. Though I would say that a helm of the Tower Guard, forged out of mithril in times long past would survive, because it's you know, mithril.

What do you mean silly? If you cant use it due to the lack of hight? Why not change it something more comfortable that will be causing more damage in combat. I'd rather use normal bow than one made of steel, I'd say due to my lack of Numenorian blood:-) No but seriously dumping strong weapon for something weaker but more comfortable - is an improvement: Russian forces changed their all mighty AK 47 to AK 74 due to the weight, loosing all that mighty power AK 47 had - here is an example from modern life.
Moreover, crossbow will not prevail - it will be waste of time: 5 bow shots = 1 crossbow shot (time) power is probably 2.5\1-crossbow\bow, again it all depends on other many factors.
I'll get some quotes, just so freaking don't want to dig in, but since you insist :-) However, you would have to wait ;-)

Yeah, the only reason they developed the AK-74 over a 50 year old assault rifle was because of weight. Not because it was showing its age in the era of gas piston assault rifles... Granted weight probably had something to do with it, but certainly not the majority.
Training time for average crossbow accuracy: a day. Training time for good bow accuracy: months. Therefore, I can conscript my whole town to crossbowmen once I spot your army of longbowmen coming up the road. If I'm given the same time as you took to train your longbowmen, I can outnumber you Five Thousand to One. Sure my men are less accurate, fire slower and aren't disciplined, but if necessary they can hide behind the corpses of their fellows and slowly advance and then leap out and crush your longbowmen underneath their screaming peasant bodies.
It's so silly because a height difference of one inch is not going to make me want to switch my bow. For one, it's a gradual change, and longbows aren't mass produced - each shorter generation could have a new, shiny steel bow. But they can't because Gondor lost the techniques for doing it.

Gundabad - the place of Durin the Deathless awekening and therefore Homeland to all the dwarves. It was sacred to them, although taken by orcs few times, dwarves managed to take it back. However, Mount Gundabad remained as one of the main orcs strongholds from the beginning of the 3rd age, orcs took back with the growth of Agmar. However, after The Dwarves and Orcs War, I think, Goblins took control over it - don't really remember.
Yes, there are other places in Misty Mountains - you making me dig in again:-( I will do so, but its going to take some time...

Go ahead, I've got all week

[IIS]

Really? how about you wear chainmail and I wear plate armor - both of us will have same weaponы and we will fight? You think you will stand a chance?

I accept that challenge Name your weapon

I name my weapon Basil.

Really? how about you wear chainmail and I wear plate armor - both of us will have same weaponы and we will fight? You think you will stand a chance?

I accept that challenge Name your weapon

I name my weapon Basil.

In that case I would take morning star :-)

Fine by me. You guys can aim for the armour. I'll aim for the face
Lets see who stands the best chance. Oh and according to British rules, I get to take the first shot

Good idea - I will wear a pretty good helm with vizor than :-) or Tuetonic bucket helm.

[IIS]

Page 84 of my copy (which is split into 7 books), in the Siege of Gondor chapter, of Pippin's garb: "he had a small hauberk, its rings forged of steel maybe, but black as jet. [...] Above the mail was a short surcoat of black". This is the outfit of the soldiers of Gondor, more specifically the Guard of the White Tower: "The guards of the gate were robed in black [..] surcoats."

Clear enough for me.

That is really hard to believe, sounds like what Pipin would have worn, not a tower guard - well, let me just get to my books. Than we will see... So its chapter four of the first book in TROTK, right?

Oh my. They had Half-Elven High Numenorians. How? Where? 1200?
Ok, I did say I'd be civil, but that's just stupid. It really is.
And I'd like to point out that there's no indication of pikemen in existence anywhere in Middle-Earth in the books.

My dear friend, did you even know that there was a city in Gondor called Dol Amroth and that city was pretty different to the rest of the country, the city under prince Imrahil? If you did not, I guess you would not know who the inhabitants of that place were.
No pikesmen in Middle Earth - wow that is a really great statement - Saruman I guess was smart enough to give his forces swords only :-) lol And definatelly there is no way Gondor would have any, where would Gondor get spears from? They all had swords, indeed :-) probably were naked too... lol

Other point - I think you agreed that force of Rohan was not superior to the Gondorian one ;-) So Rohan was far from the best Men Kindom in Middle Earth. Although they had superior horsemen fighting tactics, yet Knights of Gondor had better ammunition and order. Yet, Rohan was the one who was aiding Gondor ;-) not otherway round...

the Rangers seem to have been based out of Rivendell, not out of random havens. Arnor never had many cities in its heyday, and none of the are more than rubble.

I'm pretty sure it was not just Rivendell. There were enough cities, let's see - Annuminas, Fornost, Tharbad, Long Daer, Baneketta, Ruad and these are the cities, although they as you said were pretty destroyed :-) I'm sure there would have been some villages and towns too that are not on the map. Moreover, as you said Bree maintained - so I guess it would have had something :-)

If he'd lost conciousness, he'd probably be dead. Still no basis of comparison. You don't know how an equivalent Gondorian helm would stand up to a similar blow - you can't just say that one will, because you don't know the characteristics of the blow at all. Though I would say that a helm of the Tower Guard, forged out of mithril in times long past would survive, because it's you know, mithril.

Well it does not depend on material only, yet I guess you are right. However, it does not look like the towerguards have that kind of helmets in the movie. However, taking an average Gondorian soldier's helmet as an example (from the film) I could easily say - it would probably hold, since it desined to slide the hits away when the strike is blown onto owners head, most of the blows of a blunted badly forged sword that Uruk Hi had would probably do damage but not break it in half. Again here it comes to a point where there is not episode in the film where Gimli gets smashed in the head... So I guess I could be wrong...

Yeah, the only reason they developed the AK-74 over a 50 year old assault rifle was because of weight. Not because it was showing its age in the era of gas piston assault rifles... Granted weight probably had something to do with it, but certainly not the majority.
Training time for average crossbow accuracy: a day. Training time for good bow accuracy: months. Therefore, I can conscript my whole town to crossbowmen once I spot your army of longbowmen coming up the road. If I'm given the same time as you took to train your longbowmen, I can outnumber you Five Thousand to One. Sure my men are less accurate, fire slower and aren't disciplined, but if necessary they can hide behind the corpses of their fellows and slowly advance and then leap out and crush your longbowmen underneath their screaming peasant bodies.
It's so silly because a height difference of one inch is not going to make me want to switch my bow. For one, it's a gradual change, and longbows aren't mass produced - each shorter generation could have a new, shiny steel bow. But they can't because Gondor lost the techniques for doing it.

Where would you get so many people?
I guess Gondorians had enough time for training:-) When you are under siedge - bow is better, much better - Gondorians had to defend themselves most of the time, bow is also easier to use on horses - point for Rohirrim :-) Hei, if you say that steel bow is such an advantage, why none of the elves had them made for themselves - surely they had enough skills to forge them.
Good point for training though - that is exactly why Saruman used crossbows for his Uruks - since he did not have enough time to train them... I bet Gondorians had that time - they were not born from the pits :-)
Main reasons for change in AK model were weight and size! It was slowing down soldiers. If they wanted to change accuracy they would have modified it, which they did, few times ;-)
Ak 74 started serving Soviet army in 70's, when AK 47 was less than 30 years old :-)

Go ahead, I've got all week

Will do, will do :-)

[cahik_]

1200 Highnumenorians (half high elves half numenorian blooded) of Dol Amroth.

as far as i know only Imrahil had elven ancestor, i higly doubt that all Dol Amroth's knights had elven blood. Mainly cause there are only few couples in whole history and if all Amroth's people had elven blood it would be in books...but it isnt there

Actually at the battle of Pelennor fields they had around 6000, so it could be more or less, but I presume the entire strenth of the kindom at that time was close to 8000. Compare to 15000 of Gondorian forces

Six thousand spears. Less then half of what i'd hoped for.

As king he should know how many warriors are there in his kingdom. So 8000 definatly isnt right. i guess that the entire strenght would be compareable to gondor cause i doubt that he will left the kingdom totaly withot warriors.

[Clement]

Six thousand spears. Less then half of what i'd hoped for.

As king he should know how many warriors are there in his kingdom. So 8000 definatly isnt right. thumbsdownsmiley.gif i guess that the entire strenght would be compareable to gondor cause i doubt that he will left the kingdom totaly withot warriors.

Indeed, I think that Rohan has more than 15 000 rohirims.

Edited by TheDeadPlayer, 06 August 2007 - 11:30 AM.

[Eldarion25]

And with my point I made, even if it worked as you said, that would be 3/4, 3/8, 3/16, 3/32, 3/64, 3/128, 3/256, 3/512, 3/1024, 3/2048, 3/4096, 3/8192, 3/16384, 3/32768, 3/65536, 3/131072, 3/262144, 3/524288, 3/1048576, 3/2097152. That's a full 20 generations, considering that a Numenorian married a Half-Numenorian, and he married a Half-Numenorian, and from then they married normal humans. Even if they were to marry more with Numenorian blood earlier in the line, it wouldn't make much difference... that statistic would show that after 20 generations through the entire 3rd age to the WOTR, 3 out of 2097152 (and I doubt Gondor would have that large of a population) would have Numenorian blood in their veins.