127 replies to this topic

[Nertea]

That is really hard to believe, sounds like what Pipin would have worn, not a tower guard - well, let me just get to my books. Than we will see... So its chapter four of the first book in TROTK, right?

Pippin WAS a tower guard... he was sworn into the service of the White Tower...

My dear friend, did you even know that there was a city in Gondor called Dol Amroth and that city was pretty different to the rest of the country, the city under prince Imrahil? If you did not, I guess you would not know who the inhabitants of that place were.

No Half-Elven High Numenorians there. There was Imrahil who, long ago, had an Elvish ancestor. So do the math. I'd also like to point out that you got your numbers horribly wrong - I seem to recall seven hundreds of men on foot and one company of Knights anyways.

No pikesmen in Middle Earth - wow that is a really great statement - Saruman I guess was smart enough to give his forces swords only :-) lol And definatelly there is no way Gondor would have any, where would Gondor get spears from? They all had swords, indeed :-) probably were naked too... lol

The theory of pikes is significantly different than the theory of spears. And like I said - regardless of the movie, in none of UT or LOTR's descriptive passages are Uruk-Hai with pikes mentioned.

Other point - I think you agreed that force of Rohan was not superior to the Gondorian one ;

Sorry, I guess I don't agree.

I'm pretty sure it was not just Rivendell. There were enough cities, let's see - Annuminas, Fornost, Tharbad, Long Daer, Baneketta, Ruad and these are the cities, although they as you said were pretty destroyed :-) I'm sure there would have been some villages and towns too that are not on the map. Moreover, as you said Bree maintained - so I guess it would have had something :-)

Oh, doubtless there were camps. But there was no real population, and thus no army. The rangers defended not the remnants of Arnor, but the Shire and the lands around it. That in itself should say something.

Well it does not depend on material only, yet I guess you are right. However, it does not look like the towerguards have that kind of helmets in the movie. However, taking an average Gondorian soldier's helmet as an example (from the film) I could easily say - it would probably hold, since it desined to slide the hits away when the strike is blown onto owners head, most of the blows of a blunted badly forged sword that Uruk Hi had would probably do damage but not break it in half. Again here it comes to a point where there is not episode in the film where Gimli gets smashed in the head... So I guess I could be wrong...

Yes, you could. So could I. There's no basis for comparison here.

Where would you get so many people?
I guess Gondorians had enough time for training:-) When you are under siedge - bow is better, much better - Gondorians had to defend themselves most of the time, bow is also easier to use on horses - point for Rohirrim :-) Hei, if you say that steel bow is such an advantage, why none of the elves had them made for themselves - surely they had enough skills to forge them.
Good point for training though - that is exactly why Saruman used crossbows for his Uruks - since he did not have enough time to train them... I bet Gondorians had that time - they were not born from the pits :-)

It easily follows from both your earlier argument and most of the books that the Elves wouldn't develop any kind of steel bow - they have sufficient skill with their normal bows and it's not their style. Don't ask why, I don't fully know, but nevertheless they didn't. However Men DID develop it and DID use it and DID forget how to create it!
I think you missed my point entirely with the crossbow. The bow has the advantage of versatility, cheapness in manufacture and firing rate. The crossbow has the advantage in speed of training, easy accuracy, and direct firepower. I'm not arguing against the bow - but if the bow is the be-all and end-all weapon, why did the majority of armies conscript a great deal of peasants into crossbowmen as the weapon developed? It's just a better weapon for the amount of time you need to master it.

Main reasons for change in AK model were weight and size! It was slowing down soldiers. If they wanted to change accuracy they would have modified it, which they did, few times ;-)
Ak 74 started serving Soviet army in 70's, when AK 47 was less than 30 years old :-)

You can't just modify a gun to change accuracy. It just.. doesn't work. Could I take an old Lee Enfield rifle and start modifying it to change the accuracy? only to a certain extent... at some point I'd need to change the ammunition and pretty much the whole rifle - which would result in something the the 74 (which uses a different caliber of bullet IIRC). FYI, the 74 is actually larger than the 47, and not that much lighter (on the order of 500 grammes, I believe).

[halbarad]

this topic is just a lesson in ownage, lol

[Herunor]

Boy, go read the books, then come back and we can diskuss! Don't you realise that you are the only one with a different opinion?
Plate armor, chainmaile,... it doesn't matter as none of them can stay against a well targeted shot or hit.

[Eldarion25]

I think our good friend IIS has given up

[Nertea]

Regardless, that's obvious - no need for any accusations of giving up. If you're not civil in victory... well, just be civil in victory .

[IIS]

Hei, first of all I gotta greet all of you guys and say I missed u)))
Secondly, I did not give up I was pretty busy with my uni wrok!
And finally, here are my arguements, hope you enjoy ;-)

as far as i know only Imrahil had elven ancestor, i higly doubt that all Dol Amroth's knights had elven blood. Mainly cause there are only few couples in whole history and if all Amroth's people had elven blood it would be in books...but it isnt there

Different resources give different info, Imrahil, indeed, had an elven ancestor, but it can be argued that, so did most of the citizens. However, I am not going to lie, I really do not remember what books say about the description of the inhabitants of Dol Amroth, but various websites devoted to the games, movies and books claim that they were half elven blooded or at least of high Numenorian heritage (since they left an island of Numenor long before its destruction and maintained their blood). However, some resources say that people of Dol Amroth did mix with high elves, who lived in that area before the Numenorians arived. This can be supported by the use of Sindarin language in the city and maintenance of many elvish traditions.
Quote: "The men of Dol Amroth are described as tall and proud, with sea-grey eyes and dark-haired. The men are also of high blood."
Quote: "The people of Dol Amroth were of Numenorean descent; many of them had elven roots, they were tall with dark hair and grey eyes and could speak Elvish."

As king he should know how many warriors are there in his kingdom. So 8000 definatly isnt right. i guess that the entire strenght would be compareable to gondor cause i doubt that he will left the kingdom totaly withot warriors.

As king? His mind was poisoned for how long? He did not even know that his son was dead and you say that he should definately know how strong his kindom was - these were the dark times remember? True, he would not leave his kindom totally without any soldiers, but he knew he needed superior force in order to aid Gondor. Therefore, it is pretty resonable to say that he would leave something like 33 % which is 2000 out of 6000, which makes 8000 in total...

And with my point I made, even if it worked as you said, that would be 3/4, 3/8, 3/16, 3/32, 3/64, 3/128, 3/256, 3/512, 3/1024, 3/2048, 3/4096, 3/8192, 3/16384, 3/32768, 3/65536, 3/131072, 3/262144, 3/524288, 3/1048576, 3/2097152. That's a full 20 generations, considering that a Numenorian married a Half-Numenorian, and he married a Half-Numenorian, and from then they married normal humans. Even if they were to marry more with Numenorian blood earlier in the line, it wouldn't make much difference... that statistic would show that after 20 generations through the entire 3rd age to the WOTR, 3 out of 2097152 (and I doubt Gondor would have that large of a population) would have Numenorian blood in their veins.

Point is not taken, as after 3\4 Numenorian it follows simple pattern of pure mixture with none Numenorian blooded, without considering further mixture with those of Numenorian or half numenorian blood. Therefore, it suggested that all numenorians were killed or simply died out...

Pippin WAS a tower guard... he was sworn into the service of the White Tower...

True, but he was wearing outfit of Faramir, when Faramir was a little boy, which I doubt has a lot to do with TowerGuards armor.

No Half-Elven High Numenorians there. There was Imrahil who, long ago, had an Elvish ancestor. So do the math. I'd also like to point out that you got your numbers horribly wrong - I seem to recall seven hundreds of men on foot and one company of Knights anyways.

Already explained the first part of this statement: different resources have different info... I did not get the numbers horribly wrong 700 men on foot were pretty much knights of Dol Amroth, except not mounted, + 500 mounted knights if you wish - this is a pretty big company ;-)

The theory of pikes is significantly different than the theory of spears. And like I said - regardless of the movie, in none of UT or LOTR's descriptive passages are Uruk-Hai with pikes mentioned.

Come on man, you know what I ment... Moreover, the games are based more on movies than books...

Sorry, I guess I don't agree.

Up to you, but I think it is unreasonable... I doubt Rohan could hold the might of Mordor, like Gondor did...
Quote: "Gondor was the greatest kingdom of Men in Middle-earth. It was founded by the survivors of Numenor - Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion."
Quote: "Without doubt the greatest of the Mannish realms of recent history, Gondor stands like a bulwark between Mordor and the rest of the Free world."
Quote: "Gondor was the greatest kingdom of Men in Middle-earth. Gondor remained as the first line of defense between Mordor and the rest of Middle-earth. This line was never broken."

Oh, doubtless there were camps. But there was no real population, and thus no army. The rangers defended not the remnants of Arnor, but the Shire and the lands around it. That in itself should say something.

That is why I'm pretty sure those camps maintained some little brigades of warriors and militia, not just rangers. I am not the only one who thinks like that:
http://uk.games-work...rnor/preview/1/
http://uk.games-work...ing-warriors/1/
http://images.google...l=h...l=ru&sa=N

Yes, you could. So could I. There's no basis for comparison here.

Now here is the moment we all've been waiting for))) :
Unlike in 2A, the forces of 3A Gondor made extensive use of mounted troops (RotK, p406). Most were professionals of Gondorian origin, and are described as uniformed knights in full plate armour (RotK, p45, 189). Yet, there are also descriptions in the book of Gondorian armor being only hauberks with vambraces and limbs armor, as you were mentioning before; BUT this can be considered as the armor of the militiamen who were recruited within Gondor in the later parts of the 3A (RotK, p182) their athority was not equal to the ones who were doing the full service, since militia normally protected their hometowns and villages (militia does not appear in the film trilogy)
PS Remeber, how you claimed that Gimli's corselet was better than any hauberk in Rohan, well this is actually no wonder fact since corselets are normally better than hauberks anyway. However, in the film Gimly has well-made mail, which is still pretty good for protection.
Moreover, in the film the obvious adventage of Gondorian armor is seen all the time: full plated armor over chainmails and hauberks. No doubt dwarven armor on average was better than any other man kind armor: Rohan, Harad, Rhun, Dale, Bree-land, Northmen, men of Dunharrow, before they became ghosts etc. it is really hard to claim that it would protect better than Gondorian steel plates... Yet, I will agree with the statement that dwarven elete or "special" forces, for example from Iron Hills, would have better armor than Soldiers of Gondor, but these would be SPECIAL forces and this is not the point I was trying to prove here...

It easily follows from both your earlier argument and most of the books that the Elves wouldn't develop any kind of steel bow - they have sufficient skill with their normal bows and it's not their style. Don't ask why, I don't fully know, but nevertheless they didn't. However Men DID develop it and DID use it and DID forget how to create it!
I think you missed my point entirely with the crossbow. The bow has the advantage of versatility, cheapness in manufacture and firing rate. The crossbow has the advantage in speed of training, easy accuracy, and direct firepower. I'm not arguing against the bow - but if the bow is the be-all and end-all weapon, why did the majority of armies conscript a great deal of peasants into crossbowmen as the weapon developed? It's just a better weapon for the amount of time you need to master it.

As I said before, they simply did not make the steel bows because they could not use them properly, not because they could not make them. They would get tired faster, because they were not of full numenorian blood any longer. They did not forget how to create a steel bow! It was simply ineffective. They did not make long shields with pointy ends either! What does that mean they forgot how to create them or they became shorter and did not need those shields anymore?
True it is a better weapon for the amount of time to master, but is not a better weapon in combat, if both armies know how to use their weapons well: Beginning of Hundred Years War between England and France: France lost a lot of territories and army, mainly due to English longbowmen, who overthrew French crossbowmen.

You can't just modify a gun to change accuracy. It just.. doesn't work. Could I take an old Lee Enfield rifle and start modifying it to change the accuracy? only to a certain extent... at some point I'd need to change the ammunition and pretty much the whole rifle - which would result in something the the 74 (which uses a different caliber of bullet IIRC). FYI, the 74 is actually larger than the 47, and not that much lighter (on the order of 500 grammes, I believe).

You can modify a gun to change accuracy - you said it yourself - at least to some point. Otherways, point totally taken and I have to admit that I was pretty much wrong...

[IIS]

Here is a visual contrast:

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[Eldarion25]

Pippin WAS a tower guard... he was sworn into the service of the White Tower...

1. True, but he was wearing outfit of Faramir, when Faramir was a little boy, which I doubt has a lot to do with TowerGuards armor.

Sorry, I guess I don't agree.

2. Up to you, but I think it is unreasonable... I doubt Rohan could hold the might of Mordor, like Gondor did...
Quote: "Gondor was the greatest kingdom of Men in Middle-earth. It was founded by the survivors of Numenor - Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion."
Quote: "Without doubt the greatest of the Mannish realms of recent history, Gondor stands like a bulwark between Mordor and the rest of the Free world."
Quote: "Gondor was the greatest kingdom of Men in Middle-earth. Gondor remained as the first line of defense between Mordor and the rest of Middle-earth. This line was never broken."

Oh, doubtless there were camps. But there was no real population, and thus no army. The rangers defended not the remnants of Arnor, but the Shire and the lands around it. That in itself should say something.

3. That is why I'm pretty sure those camps maintained some little brigades of warriors and militia, not just rangers. I am not the only one who thinks like that:
http://uk.games-work...rnor/preview/1/
http://uk.games-work...ing-warriors/1/
http://images.google...l=h...l=ru&sa=N

4. it is really hard to claim that it would protect better than Gondorian steel plates... Yet, I will agree with the statement that dwarven elete or "special" forces, for example from Iron Hills, would have better armor than Soldiers of Gondor, but these would be SPECIAL forces and this is not the point I was trying to prove here...


5. Beginning of Hundred Years War between England and France: France lost a lot of territories and army, mainly due to English longbowmen, who overthrew French crossbowmen.

1. That's based on the movies, not the books.

2. Yes, "Of Men", did you miss that? Not ever, just "Of Men". And what about "of recent history"?

3. That's based on the divided Kingdom of Arnor and the invasion of the WK in T2A, not T3A.

4. The Dwarves were some of the greatest smiths in all of Middle Earth, and their armor was of better quality, better materials (such as mithril and dragon skin), and this was all dwarven armor, not just elite's. Appearences have nothing to do with ability and quality.

5. The French couldn't ever win a war without Napoleon!

Do you just love to argue?

Edited by Eldarion25, 21 October 2007 - 02:33 PM.

[IIS]

1. That's based on the movies, not the books.

Games are pretty much based on the movies; and only than they are based on books. Moreover, I doubt there was a full towerguard armor that would suite pippin's size...

2. Yes, "Of Men", did you miss that? Not ever, just "Of Men". And what about "of recent history"?

This was the point to prove that Gondor was better and stronger than Rohan. Moreover, since it is the best kindom of men, it should be at least better and more skilled than some of the dwarven ones. Or you saying that even the worst kindom of dwarves would have been better than the best of men?

3. That's based on the divided Kingdom of Arnor and the invasion of the WK in T2A, not T3A.

No, it's not it is based on the time of the War of the Ring! -
Quote: "All that remains of the once-proud armies of Arnor, these warriors are, by necessity, veterans of wars with Angmar, though their spirit is all but broken."

4. The Dwarves were some of the greatest smiths in all of Middle Earth, and their armor was of better quality, better materials (such as mithril and dragon skin), and this was all dwarven armor, not just elite's. Appearences have nothing to do with ability and quality.

Doubt regular dwarven soldier was protected by mithril or dragon scale... May be appearences don't, but the obvious advantage of plate armor over chain or scale mail is clear...

5. The French couldn't ever win a war without Napoleon!

True, but they did manage to win the hundred years war with England...

Do you just love to argue?

No I don't, I just stated a point and all of you started arguing against it, so I had to argue back in order to support it!

[Dain Ironfoot]

Oh my god he's back..

[UltimateRanger]

As he has returned

Yeah, it gives more versitility - by a bit - you also feel every blow that hits you - in plate armor you don't! And again with all the respect - there is no way chainmail holds sword slashes as well as armor does: weak, average blows it will hold - strong sword slash - will wound or kill you - in plated armor it will bouns of you - unless its megapowerful - which still could happen and could wound you. Moreover, any kind of stab even if its not strong, - has a huge potential of wounding you - when in chainmail, not in plate armor. ANd as you said yourself - it has not protection against long distance weapons such as bows, crossbows etc. Moreover, even a weak blow with a mace into the chainmail soldier will break all of his blows, for plate armor you will need a strong blow! 1 on 1 combat - definatelly yes, 100 on 100 combat - same effect - examples? Look up crusades... Furthermore, how about Tatar invasion into Russia

That's laughable, a sword would not bounce off a plate of armour without leaving some sort of mark,probably a dent.

And a mace would probably break the rib cage of a plate armoured soldier, admittedly it would kill a chainmail soldier with a single blow.

Edited by UltimateRanger, 21 October 2007 - 08:04 PM.

[IIS]

As he has returned

Yeah, it gives more versitility - by a bit - you also feel every blow that hits you - in plate armor you don't! And again with all the respect - there is no way chainmail holds sword slashes as well as armor does: weak, average blows it will hold - strong sword slash - will wound or kill you - in plated armor it will bouns of you - unless its megapowerful - which still could happen and could wound you. Moreover, any kind of stab even if its not strong, - has a huge potential of wounding you - when in chainmail, not in plate armor. ANd as you said yourself - it has not protection against long distance weapons such as bows, crossbows etc. Moreover, even a weak blow with a mace into the chainmail soldier will break all of his blows, for plate armor you will need a strong blow! 1 on 1 combat - definatelly yes, 100 on 100 combat - same effect - examples? Look up crusades... Furthermore, how about Tatar invasion into Russia

That's laughable, a sword would not bounce off a plate of armour without leaving some sort of mark,probably a dent.

And a mace would probably break the rib cage of a plate armoured soldier, admittedly it would kill a chainmail soldier with a single blow.

You pretty much supported my arguement

[UltimateRanger]

No I didn't
My quote wasn't working

That was what you said earlier on

I was saying a sword would not bounce off a plate of armour, it would leave a mark, maybe a dent


And a mace would buckle the plate of armour and probably break their ribs

[/quote]Yeah, it gives more versitility - by a bit - you also feel every blow that hits you - in plate armor you don't! And again with all the respect - there is no way chainmail holds sword slashes as well as armor does: weak, average blows it will hold - strong sword slash - will wound or kill you - in plated armor it will bouns of you - unless its megapowerful - which still could happen and could wound you. Moreover, any kind of stab even if its not strong, - has a huge potential of wounding you - when in chainmail, not in plate armor. ANd as you said yourself - it has not protection against long distance weapons such as bows, crossbows etc. Moreover, even a weak blow with a mace into the chainmail soldier will break all of his blows, for plate armor you will need a strong blow! 1 on 1 combat - definatelly yes, 100 on 100 combat - same effect - examples? Look up crusades... Furthermore, how about Tatar invasion into Russia[/quote]

That was from you on page 2

I am completely against your argument, besides it's practically the same with a plate of armour against a mace because if you've got broken ribs you can't fight

Edited by UltimateRanger, 22 October 2007 - 07:42 AM.

[Sûlherokhh]

It's funny. This argument has basically split up into two parts:
1. LotR-'fluff'. Sources are books by Tolkien plus maybe his son's later work.
2. The effect of weapons on armor.

For the first i believe quotations have shown what Tolkien wanted his characters to wear; Chain Mail. I have yet to read a passage where plate armor was mentioned, apart from singular pieces protecting shoulders, knee-caps and the head (helmet).

For the second, quotations from a reliable source are in order before any sensible discussion can ensue. I can only imagine what damage a blow with blunt, edged or pointed objects can do. My sources are not exactly reliable (TV, rpg-treatises, etc.) and so i would really welcome additional sources.

[m@tt]

[quote]text goes here[/quote]

is how you quote

[IIS]

No I didn't
My quote wasn't working

That was what you said earlier on

I was saying a sword would not bounce off a plate of armour, it would leave a mark, maybe a dent


And a mace would buckle the plate of armor and probably break their ribs

I know you said that, but that is pretty much the same thing I was saying. Ok, hard blow would leave a dent on plated armor and kill the guy wearing chainmail. Moreover, soft blows - would be likely to injure or wound a guy in chainmail and yes they probably would scratch plated armor too, but does that really metter? Mace would not necessary break your ribs in plate armor, again it all depends on the power and accuracy of the hit. Moreover, mace would definately leave huge injuries on the guy in chainmail regardless of the power of the hit, as long it makes contact.
THEREFORE, plate armor is much better protection, THUS Gondorians had better armor!

[Elendil711]

Numenoreans would own Dwarves! Counting that they're full-blooded

[Elendil711]

For one thing you all are wrong, Gimli's helm that was broken at Helm's Deep was from Edoras: Gimli needed no coat of rings, even if one had been found to match his stature, for there was no hauberk in the hoard of Edoras of better make than his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain in the North. But he chose a cap of iron and leather that fitted well upon his round head.

Theoden: And to you my other guests I will offer such things as may be found in my armory. Swords you do not need, but there are helms and coats of mail of cunning work, gifts to my fathers out of Gondor.

[IIS]

Numenoreans would own Dwarves! Counting that they're full-blooded

That's kinda of the topic, but well this topic has a broad discussion now! lol

[CNCM_BLITZ]

If you read the books a little more closely, then you would know that the Numenoreans had not lost of allof their characteristics. When Frodo was travelling through Ithilien, the book details that the rangers were tall and fair of face, and had dark hair, grey eyes, and had pail skin. A perfect description of a Numenorian.

Also their blood wasnt so diluted as all that. There were many more Numenorians in Middle-earth than those that came with Elendil after the fall of Numenor. There were many Numenorian Cities such as Umbar, Pelargir, Dol Amroth, and many in the North too. So there blood wasnt a 1/500 concentration. It was definitely more Numenorian.

And there were some parts of Gondor were pure blood remained. Dol Amroth was one example as previously mentioned. And there was much elven blood in those people too. More than just the line of princes of Dol Amroth had elven blood. They were apparently fairer than most Numenorians. I will be sure to include something of this in my mod. Perhaps elite archers and farther sight or something.

Anyways, the Dunedain of the north were of pure blood. Aragorn was not of mixed blood. The books say this although I cant remember where. I am reading them again so I will get back to you on this. He lived 3 times the span of lesser men as all pure numenorians did. The shortening of the Numenorians lifespan had more to do with the fall of their power and glory, which did come about because of the mixing of blood. There was more to it than that though. But the fact that numenorian genes were degressive isnt totally true. The men of numenor at the time of the ROTK indeed had many dunedain features. They were more like lesser numenorians than lesser men. The books description of them shows that.