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#61 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 07:43 AM

Numenoreans would own Dwarves! Counting that they're full-blooded


They would in their prime due to numbers but given an evenly numbered battle Dwarves would win.Dwarves were the strongest fighters in Middle-Earth.

But we are just speculating on a fictional work so it is kind of like whether or not Superman can outrun the Flash.(Flash would win if he was wearing Red)

Edited by Radspakr, 26 October 2007 - 07:44 AM.

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#62 CNCM_BLITZ

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 02:12 PM

Dwarves are the hardiest race in Middle-earth so you have to work that into your ideas. I think dwarves COULD win. They have superior stonework, and mithril in their smithing. They has got to count for something. Also dwarves in combat will make the Numenorians have to stoop to fight, giving the dwarf some advantage. I think it would be a draw.

#63 IIS

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:31 PM

If you read the books a little more closely, then you would know that the Numenoreans had not lost of allof their characteristics. When Frodo was travelling through Ithilien, the book details that the rangers were tall and fair of face, and had dark hair, grey eyes, and had pail skin. A perfect description of a Numenorian.

Also their blood wasnt so diluted as all that. There were many more Numenorians in Middle-earth than those that came with Elendil after the fall of Numenor. There were many Numenorian Cities such as Umbar, Pelargir, Dol Amroth, and many in the North too. So there blood wasnt a 1/500 concentration. It was definitely more Numenorian.

And there were some parts of Gondor were pure blood remained. Dol Amroth was one example as previously mentioned. And there was much elven blood in those people too. More than just the line of princes of Dol Amroth had elven blood. They were apparently fairer than most Numenorians. I will be sure to include something of this in my mod. Perhaps elite archers and farther sight or something.

Anyways, the Dunedain of the north were of pure blood. Aragorn was not of mixed blood. The books say this although I cant remember where. I am reading them again so I will get back to you on this. He lived 3 times the span of lesser men as all pure numenorians did. The shortening of the Numenorians lifespan had more to do with the fall of their power and glory, which did come about because of the mixing of blood. There was more to it than that though. But the fact that numenorian genes were degressive isnt totally true. The men of numenor at the time of the ROTK indeed had many dunedain features. They were more like lesser numenorians than lesser men. The books description of them shows that.

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Not sure if I agree with every point you made, but mostly respect :p

They would in their prime due to numbers but given an evenly numbered battle Dwarves would win.Dwarves were the strongest fighters in Middle-Earth.

But we are just speculating on a fictional work so it is kind of like whether or not Superman can outrun the Flash.(Flash would win if he was wearing Red)

I recon gondorians would own Dwarves :p Due to the reasons that have been mentioned here before... better armor, more combat experience, higher levels of agility, higher levels of intuition, use of proper strategies on the battlefield since Gondor was a military organised country. The only advantages dwarves had were higher levels of indurance and strength + crafting... Gondorian were probably even to Numenorians: more combat experience, better armor, less strength and agility, Numenorians were of superior race too(since Gondorians were not full numenorians) other attributes would have been, probably the same, although Numenorians would have a slight advantage in intuition and Gondorians in war tactics.

Now superman would own anyone, unless someone brings that stupid meteor lol

Dwarves are the hardiest race in Middle-earth so you have to work that into your ideas. I think dwarves COULD win. They have superior stonework, and mithril in their smithing. They has got to count for something. Also dwarves in combat will make the Numenorians have to stoop to fight, giving the dwarf some advantage. I think it would be a draw.


Dissagree, Numenorians had bloody good stoneworking skills and were good in fighting too, yet were probably worse in armor crafting. However, considering dwarves wearing mithril mails or plates is cheating: in that case they would own anyone: Gondorians, Numenorians, Men of Dale, Arnorians, Haradrim, poeple of Rhun, people of Bree-land, northmen, wildmen, even brave Rohirrim, without using a single spear or lance...

But basic dwarven Guardian does not have that kind of armor...
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#64 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:34 PM

Guardians? Your ridiculous argument switches between using books, movies or EA stupidity faster than I can chuck this into the Green Dragon because this rubbish has NOTHING to do with BFME modding.

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#65 IIS

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:38 PM

by guardians I ment basic dwarven infantry - what's wrong with that? I just made it clear for those people who did not read the books but played the games...
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#66 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:43 PM

Because all your arguments have been ridiculous and include huge gear changes. I'm not entirely sure why you're even still arguing. Nertea and several others posted logical and well thought out and referenced arguments earlier in the thread, which you just ignored. Or made up stuff. We don't need more of this. We know you think Gondor is the best blah blah blah and that nothing anyone says is going to change your mind. I'm still not entirely clear what the purpose of this thread was in the first place. If it was to influence mods it failed. Miserably.

Edited by Dain Ironfoot, 26 October 2007 - 04:48 PM.

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#67 Allathar

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:50 PM

Amen.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#68 IIS

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:58 PM

Because all your arguments have been ridiculous and include huge gear changes. I'm not entirely sure why you're even still arguing. Nertea and several others posted logical and well thought out and referenced arguments earlier in the thread, which you just ignored. Or made up stuff. We don't need more of this. We know you think Gondor is the best blah blah blah and that nothing anyone says is going to change your mind. I'm still not entirely clear what the purpose of this thread was in the first place. If it was to influence mods it failed. Miserably.


Dude, the purpose of this topic can be clearely seen in its beginning, moreover, I did not make stuff up - I put a lot of referencing in order to support my arguements: visual and textual - if you looked through the discussion, properly, you would have seen them...

PS Rohan is best due to its bravery and loyalty, Gondor is just strong and arrogant...
PPS Every single comment you and your friends made I took into consideration and looked over it - its not like I was yelling screw u guys u dump... Look through the discussion there are things that I was wrong about and I admitted so...
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#69 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:05 PM

I recon gondorians would own Dwarves rolleyes.gif Due to the reasons that have been mentioned here before... better armor, more combat experience, higher levels of agility, higher levels of intuition, use of proper strategies on the battlefield since Gondor was a military organised country.


wtf?.You say that Gondorians would have more battle experience what about the Battle of 5 armies and the Goblin-Dwarf War both were major battles/wars.Better Armour? Does Mythril ring any bells?.and what do you mean Mythril is cheating?
use of proper strategies and what the Dwarves throw themselves into battle and hope for the best?

and as far as crafting go Dwarves have been mining and building in stone since the First Age Gondor/Numenor started sometime in the Second age.The Numenoreans learnt their craft mostly from the Elves where as the Dwarves learnt themselves.

There is an unmistakable thing about Gondor they are in decline and have been since half way through the 3rd age.Without Rohan they would of fell easily to Mordor during the siege of Minas Tirith.

Oh and while Gondorians may have some Numenor blood Dwarves have 100% Dwarf blood.

Edited by Radspakr, 26 October 2007 - 05:06 PM.

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#70 Lauri

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:07 PM

ah, so Rohan is best... because they're brave and loyal? Sounds like the worst reason... ever...
Gondor is also brave... Personally, I don't think Rohan is more brave than Gondor, nor do I think Gondor is more brave than Rohan...

if we did set up 5K Rohirrim against 5K Gondorians, I don't really know who would win though.. 'both have a desent chance IMO, especially if Rohan has all riders, but if Gondor makes it all spearmen\archers, Rohan could have a huge disadvantage... 5K Knights could also have troubleled Rohan... In an Gondor vs Rohan, bravery might not have helped much... although hatred might've :)

And since we're on it, I think dwarves never could've OWNED men... they could win, but own is too extreme...

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#71 ambershee

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:13 PM

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I win.

End of debate.

#72 CNCM_BLITZ

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:17 PM

True IIS. But really it depends on what exactly they are best at. When it comes to cavalry, Rohan is Superior to all. And I am not referring to the games. I am referring to both movie and books. On foot Rohan was inferior to Gondor. The books do not however say much about the stonework or architecture of Rohan, so we cant be sure of whether Rohan was skilled with this. I would guess though that Gondor was superior. :)

Dissagree, Numenorians had bloody good stoneworking skills and were good in fighting too, yet were probably worse in armor crafting. However, considering dwarves wearing mithril mails or plates is cheating: in that case they would own anyone: Gondorians, Numenorians, Men of Dale, Arnorians, Haradrim, poeple of Rhun, people of Bree-land, northmen, wildmen, even brave Rohirrim, without using a single spear or lance...

But basic dwarven Guardian does not have that kind of armor...


Towards the time of ROTK, Gondor indeed had great stonework, but the so did the dwarves. In the FOTR Gloin talks about how great their stonework had become, and that it was greater than that of their fathers. In this area, I would suggest a draw between Gondor and Erebor.

Also I would expect that dwarves would have much mithril in their hordes, like when Thorin found a corslet of mithril for Bilbo in Erebor. Also the rest of the company had some special armor though the books dont say too much about it.

@ Ambershee Nice. Putting a tank into LOTR. Reminds of the time I found a Hydralisk in WoW3...

#73 IIS

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:42 PM

wtf?.You say that Gondorians would have more battle experience what about the Battle of 5 armies and the Goblin-Dwarf War both were major battles/wars.Better Armour? Does Mythril ring any bells?.and what do you mean Mythril is cheating?
use of proper strategies and what the Dwarves throw themselves into battle and hope for the best?

and as far as crafting go Dwarves have been mining and building in stone since the First Age Gondor/Numenor started sometime in the Second age.The Numenoreans learnt their craft mostly from the Elves where as the Dwarves learnt themselves.

There is an unmistakable thing about Gondor they are in decline and have been since half way through the 3rd age.Without Rohan they would of fell easily to Mordor during the siege of Minas Tirith.

Oh and while Gondorians may have some Numenor blood Dwarves have 100% Dwarf blood.


Dwarves of Iron Hills, if I get it right ,participated there, not all the kindoms... Goblin-Dwarf war - it makes it two. Now, how about all the fights Gondor had agains Rhun, Harad, wainriders, Umbar, Mordor etc. Did all the dwarves had mithril armor? I mean cheating, because its like saying all Gondorians had mithril helmets, were half elf blooded and full decendants of Numenor. Be resonable... No, they did not, they fought, using smart tactics too, yet, Gondor was strategically advanced... Well, yeah dwarves are better craftsmen than Gondorians, but I already said that, however, concidering the description of Numenor kindom - it is hard to claim that they would have been better than Numenorians too, yet, it is possible... Decline = small numbers does not make them retarded... Yes they would probably loose, but not easily, and it still can be questioned... Gondorians have some Numenor blood, but 100% human blood, so what?

ah, so Rohan is best... because they're brave and loyal? Sounds like the worst reason... ever...
Gondor is also brave... Personally, I don't think Rohan is more brave than Gondor, nor do I think Gondor is more brave than Rohan...

if we did set up 5K Rohirrim against 5K Gondorians, I don't really know who would win though.. 'both have a desent chance IMO, especially if Rohan has all riders, but if Gondor makes it all spearmen\archers, Rohan could have a huge disadvantage... 5K Knights could also have troubleled Rohan... In an Gondor vs Rohan, bravery might not have helped much... although hatred might've

And since we're on it, I think dwarves never could've OWNED men... they could win, but own is too extreme...


Well, I like Rohan best lol that is why I think it was the best, yet, definately not the strongest... You, probably, right about bravery; however, due to the come for help reasons - I thought ROhan had more of it... 5K Rohirrim would probably loose :p against Gondorian archers combined with spearmen... They would definatelly waste 5K of fool equipted soldiers with swords, not spears though, :p 5K Knights would probably beat 5K Rohirrim too :lol: but Gondor did not have that many Knights :)

Men had many different kindoms, which were quiet various in pretty much, well a lot of stuff. My point is average dwarf>average human but average dwarf<gondorian...

I win.

End of debate.

LOL Abrams is not the best tank lol)) U loose))
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#74 CNCM_BLITZ

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:44 PM

Okay, then. But I still think the dwarves had a lot of mithril even if it was just heirlooms or old plunder. They still had a lot in their arsenal.

Also The men of Dol Amroth had elven blood to a great extent. So I think if you put the Gondorians in Dol Amroth against dwarves, the dwarves would be PWNED.

Edited by CNCM_BLITZ, 26 October 2007 - 05:46 PM.


#75 IIS

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 06:05 PM

[quote]True IIS. But really it depends on what exactly they are best at. When it comes to cavalry, Rohan is Superior to all. And I am not referring to the games. I am referring to both movie and books. On foot Rohan was inferior to Gondor. The books do not however say much about the stonework or architecture of Rohan, so we cant be sure of whether Rohan was skilled with this. I would guess though that Gondor was superior. [/quote]
Have to dissagree here (a little bit :lol: ) Rohan calvary is superior to all indeed, due to its might + numbers))) Gondorian knights were probably stronger due to the equipment and armor, they probably had simular tactics, although since Rohirrim were more experienced riders and since I ilke Rohan better I'd say they were a bit superior in this field:) However, in even fight Gondorian calavary would dominate due to superiority of arms and armor (+descendats of Numenor). On the other hand, size of Gondorian calvary was no match for Rohan :) There was no much stonework in Rohan, they were kinda lohs in that field :p ... So yes Gondor would have been better, but dwarves were definatelly superior to Gondorians, since all the main cities in Gondor were build by Numenorians, not Gondorians themself...

[quote]Also I would expect that dwarves would have much mithril in their hordes, like when Thorin found a corslet of mithril for Bilbo in Erebor. Also the rest of the company had some special armor though the books dont say too much about it. [/quote]
That's like the only mithril armor they found... I seriously doubt that dwarves were all equiped with mithril armor, I think very few of them would have it during the time of the War of the Ring.

[/quote] Okay, then. But I still think the dwarves had a lot of mithril even if it was just heirlooms or old plunder. They still had a lot in their arsenal. [quote]
Do you remember how surprised was Gimli when he saw Frodo's mithril chainmail? And Gimli was not a simple soldier, still although good, his armor was not made of mithril. Moreover, in the film it is only well made chainmail... Therefore, as I said before hardly any dwarves would have had mithril armor...
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#76 CNCM_BLITZ

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 07:19 PM

Have to dissagree here (a little bit ) Rohan calvary is superior to all indeed, due to its might + numbers))) Gondorian knights were probably stronger due to the equipment and armor, they probably had simular tactics, although since Rohirrim were more experienced riders and since I ilke Rohan better I'd say they were a bit superior in this field:) However, in even fight Gondorian calavary would dominate due to superiority of arms and armor (+descendats of Numenor). On the other hand, size of Gondorian calvary was no match for Rohan There was no much stonework in Rohan, they were kinda lohs in that field ... So yes Gondor would have been better, but dwarves were definatelly superior to Gondorians, since all the main cities in Gondor were build by Numenorians, not Gondorians themself...


Remember that Rohan imported chainmail from Gondor. Also Gondor imported their horses from Rohan. And the Rohirrim had Horse Archers, as well as the greatest skill on horseback. I think it is said in the books that Rohan had greater knights than Gondor. Although I have yet to get that far into them again.

#77 UltimateRanger

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 08:22 PM

5K Knights would probably beat 5K Rohirrim too


WTF

Rohirrim are called horse lords for a reason, and they can fire bows from horse back.

Depending on distance, the Knights would be PWNED

At close rangeI'd bet alot on rohirrim

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Edited by UltimateRanger, 26 October 2007 - 08:28 PM.

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#78 CNCM_BLITZ

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 09:24 PM

Thats just what I said. Horse archers are the like the equivalent of tanks or airstrikes. Speaking of which...

HAHA! Your Airstrike is nothing!
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And now...
OWNED
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Edited by CNCM_BLITZ, 26 October 2007 - 09:33 PM.


#79 Lauri

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 10:49 PM

I might've forgotten horse archers...
but I still think 5K Gondor Knights vs Rohirrim would be pretty even...
especially if Gondor has lances :grin:

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#80 zimoo

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 11:18 PM

I was in a bad mood until I read this topic, but it certainly cheered me up a bit :grin:

Although reading the topic starters' walls of text just before bed on a friday night is hard :shiftee:
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