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#81 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 01:31 AM

you had to bring Chuck into it :(

IIS battle experience only counts if you're in the battle.A lot of the army of Gondor would of only been in the Osgiliath battles.Which pales in comparison with the War of the Dwarves-Goblins.Which was fought over many years in many places and the last battle outside the East gate of Moria was a massive battle.
The Dwarven Armours were superior to Gondor's as was their weapons.
Dwarves are much more hardy then men even "numenoreans".
Most of Gondor's men were closely related to that of Dale and Gondor.And a lot of them would have no Numenorean blood.

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#82 CNCM_BLITZ

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 02:55 AM

Your just sad coz you cant beat Chuck.

There was more fighting in Gondor than in Osgiliath. There was Cair Andros, Ithilien, and other various places along the borders. So Gondor had training in many different areas of combat. Stealth, open war, war in the city, and cavalry.

Here is a rock paper scissors idea of Rohan verses Gondor.
Gondor Knights >Rohirrim Archers
Gondor Knights = Rohirrim Knight
Gondor Soldier > Rohirrim footmen
Gondor Archer > Rohirrim Archer(yeoman)
Rohirrim Archers + Knights > Gondor Knights
Chuck Norris > Gondor + Rohan

#83 IIS

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 07:46 AM

Remember that Rohan imported chainmail from Gondor. Also Gondor imported their horses from Rohan. And the Rohirrim had Horse Archers, as well as the greatest skill on horseback. I think it is said in the books that Rohan had greater knights than Gondor. Although I have yet to get that far into them again.


Yeah, bt Gondorian knights were pretty much full armored, not just chainmail protected, moreover, not every soldier would be able to become a knight in Gondor, since they lacked horses in the kindom. Although as I said before Rohirrim were more experienced riders, in history it is always: heavy cavalry>light or medium calvary, there were some exceptions, but really few... Not mentioning knights of Dol Amroth, who were pretty much tanks on horses :shiftee: I'd love to say that Rohan would dominate, but it is really debatable. Well, if you provide reference were it says so, than I guess I would support that point... Speaking of the movies - I think advantage of Gondorian knights is pretty obvious there; however, their numbers were way too small...

WTF

Rohirrim are called horse lords for a reason, and they can fire bows from horse back.

Depending on distance, the Knights would be PWNED

At close rangeI'd bet alot on rohirrim


Of cause they are: they breed horses, trade horses, pretty much live on horses, they have the biggest calvary and therefore it is concidered to be the strongest, so they are the horse lords... Yet, good point about the bows... Knights would have losses before engaging, but would be likely to overpower rohirrim afterwards. Actually I'd bet a lot on knights on short distance and would not bet on anyone on long distance: due to the Rohirrim advantage of bow usage and Knights advantage of greater protection.

PS Should have at least posted F22 image lol

Thats just what I said. Horse archers are the like the equivalent of tanks or airstrikes. Speaking of which...

HAHA! Your Airstrike is nothing!


LoL that is because he picked a horrible jet if it was F22 or Su34MD - your antiaicraft tractor would have been demolished lol

I might've forgotten horse archers...
but I still think 5K Gondor Knights vs Rohirrim would be pretty even...
especially if Gondor has lances


I think Gondorians had lances or spears, in the movie they used swords just for the diversity reasons. Yeah, I guess pretty even on long distance, yet, on short distance rohirrim would not be able to use the full potential of their bow power...

I was in a bad mood until I read this topic, but it certainly cheered me up a bit

Although reading the topic starters' walls of text just before bed on a friday night is hard


Than jump into discussion :grin: :lol:

you had to bring Chuck into it :(

IIS battle experience only counts if you're in the battle.A lot of the army of Gondor would of only been in the Osgiliath battles.Which pales in comparison with the War of the Dwarves-Goblins.Which was fought over many years in many places and the last battle outside the East gate of Moria was a massive battle.
The Dwarven Armours were superior to Gondor's as was their weapons.
Dwarves are much more hardy then men even "numenoreans".
Most of Gondor's men were closely related to that of Dale and Gondor.And a lot of them would have no Numenorean blood.


Not necessary if your kindom is often in the battles - you would make your soldiers train constantly: Hundred Year war between England and France...
Moreover, dissagree: Goblins are the lohiest creaturs you can fight... Yet, even in huge numbers they would loose to pretty much anyone, saying that Gondor was only fighting in Osgiliath is saying nothing... Alright you say that dwarven armor is superior... Please post some visual and txt reference if you can, becasue I'm going to do so again as it was done before in this topic... Yes, dwarves are tough: more strenght, more indurance, yet, less agility, less intuition with inferior armor and less combat experience become weaker opponents: Achilles owned a huge guy in the battlefiled with one smart strike.... That soldier was way stronger and tougher than Achilles...

Here is a rock paper scissors idea of Rohan verses Gondor.
Gondor Knights >Rohirrim Archers
Gondor Knights = Rohirrim Knight
Gondor Soldier > Rohirrim footmen
Gondor Archer > Rohirrim Archer(yeoman)
Rohirrim Archers + Knights > Gondor Knights
Chuck Norris > Gondor + Rohan


Lol bad math))): Gondor Knights>Rohirrim Archers and Gondor Knights=Rohirrim Knights, yet Gondor Knights<Rohirrim Archers plus Knights lol How come? Personally, I'd say that Gondor Knights a little bit > Rohirrim...
PS Chuck Norris > Gondor + Rohan - underestimated: Chuck Norris > Gondor + Rohan + Arnor+ Mirkwood + Rivendell + Angmar + Mordor + Isengard + Harad + Iron Hills + Rhun!

Dwarves in their armor:

As it was stated before: Unlike in 2A, the forces of 3A Gondor made extensive use of mounted troops (RotK, p406). Most were professionals of Gondorian origin, and are described as uniformed knights in full plate armour (RotK, p45, 189). Yet, there are also descriptions in the book of Gondorian armor being only hauberks with vambraces and limbs armor, as you were mentioning before; BUT this can be considered as the armor of the militiamen who were also recruited within Gondor in the later parts of the 3A (RotK, p182) their athority was not equal to the ones who were doing the full service, since militia normally protected their hometowns and villages (militia does not appear in the film trilogy)

Gondorian regular forces in their armor:

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Edited by IIS, 27 October 2007 - 07:52 AM.

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#84 UltimateRanger

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 08:12 AM

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#85 zimoo

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 08:19 AM

Yeah, bt Gondorian knights were pretty much full armored, not just chainmail protected


Care to support that with quotes from the books? Or are you doing your normal of jumping freely between books and films as and when it suits you?

Gondor actually had a decent sized cavalry, I believe (although I haven't read the books in ages) that roughly half of the cavalry force that went to the black gate were gondorians. Rohan just need more cavalry because of the style of their land.

Goblins are the lohiest creaturs you can fight... Yet, even in huge numbers they would loose to pretty much anyone, saying that Gondor was only fighting in Osgiliath is saying nothing... Alright you say that dwarven armor is superior... Please post some visual and txt reference if you can, becasue I'm going to do so again as it was done before in this topic... Yes, dwarves are tough: more strenght, more indurance, yet, less agility, less intuition with inferior armor and less combat experience become weaker opponents: Achilles owned a huge guy in the battlefiled with one smart strike.... That soldier was way stronger and tougher than Achilles...


Ok I was planning on staying out of this for the most part, but I just had to reply to this. Dwarven armour is superior, it's a fact. Gondor supplied armour to Rohan, Gimli's run-of-the-mill dwarven armour was superior to anything in the kings armouries (and being king he'd have the best obviously). As for less combat experience, what about a war between the orcs lasting several years? Or the battle of five armies? Or numerous other battles they may have happened which weren't mentioned because dwarves aren't the focus of Lord of the Rings?

Who is the soldier that Achilles killed? Please don't say Hector. Besides, that's a story. Our tales of Greece are based upon the stories Greeks told in their day, of course they're going to make their kinsfolk seem mighty and superhuman, to please their audiences.
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#86 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 10:09 AM

Ok I was planning on staying out of this for the most part, but I just had to reply to this. Dwarven armour is superior, it's a fact. Gondor supplied armour to Rohan, Gimli's run-of-the-mill dwarven armour was superior to anything in the kings armouries (and being king he'd have the best obviously). As for less combat experience, what about a war between the orcs lasting several years? Or the battle of five armies? Or numerous other battles they may have happened which weren't mentioned because dwarves aren't the focus of Lord of the Rings?


I really wouldn't bother Zimoo. Nertea presented those exact same things ages ago. He just ignored them. He seriously thinks he's having a serious debate.

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#87 Lauri

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 10:26 AM

IIS.... the two pics you posted...

You do realize that those dwarves has an, as said, run-of-the-mill armor..
They aren't armored up like they'd be if they were going to fight.. they can't be too heavy if their traveling, and since Gimli's armor is superior to the king of rohan(?), they should be freakin' awesome... and isn't it a fact that Gimli doesn't have mithril at all? (or isn't it.. :grin:)
Maybe the lowliest first rank dwarves has an armor like Gimli (usefullness wise), or maybe a tad worse...
Still, I belive dwarves would win, but still not pwn :shiftee:

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#88 Guess Who

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 10:45 AM

How about this.

MY IDEA
Gondor are scared little chickens(wanted to swear).
Rohan are retards.
Isengard are pwnage.
Mordor are small weak little things(wanted to swear once again).
Dwarves are slow, strong little hairy guys(wanted to swear again).
Elves would kick everyone elses butts(god i wanted to swear alot).

Wish i could say the words i wanted..................
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#89 Allathar

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 11:52 AM

Well, since obviously we can't shut you up with your 'Gondor is pwnage because a and b and c and d' with whatever good reasoned arguments we throw in, I'll keep my mouth shut. I don't have the energy to go against you nor will it do anyting good other than annoy me.

Edited by Allathar, 27 October 2007 - 11:53 AM.

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#90 Radspakr Wolfbane

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 12:08 PM

This is getting rather tiresome and repetitive.
How do you measure the intuition of Gondorians IIS? and how do you know they have more of it.

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#91 Guess Who

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 12:52 PM

In the movies gondor was pussy cats(too bad i can't swear), they were getting
killed by orcs it took about 3 of them to kill 1 orc, thats how weak they are, the warg killed heaps of them(about 10) so you can't call them 'strong'.
Lmao stop posting and it will get closed :grin:.
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#92 Lauri

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 03:58 PM

no it won't...

The men of gondor aren't made 3 to 1 for orcs... seriously dude..
An avarage Man of Gondor would've slayed an orc most likely, but in the movies, they could've been tired, wounded, exhausted, ect... There are several things that comes in play in the movies...
probably the book too...

and this topic ain't so useless... 'cause, well.. I haven't been on the ride since the start :good:

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#93 IIS

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 04:47 AM

>>>>Ultimate Ranger - pretty cool lol

Care to support that with quotes from the books? Or are you doing your normal of jumping freely between books and films as and when it suits you?

Gondor actually had a decent sized cavalry, I believe (although I haven't read the books in ages) that roughly half of the cavalry force that went to the black gate were gondorians. Rohan just need more cavalry because of the style of their land.


I think I provided book references clearely, care to look up the pages and see for yourself? Decent cavalry, probably true, yet no way it would have matched rohan forces...
Moreover, games are firstly based on movies than books, I just pointed the film trilogy facts out... ;)

Ok I was planning on staying out of this for the most part, but I just had to reply to this. Dwarven armour is superior, it's a fact. Gondor supplied armour to Rohan, Gimli's run-of-the-mill dwarven armour was superior to anything in the kings armouries (and being king he'd have the best obviously). As for less combat experience, what about a war between the orcs lasting several years? Or the battle of five armies? Or numerous other battles they may have happened which weren't mentioned because dwarves aren't the focus of Lord of the Rings?

Who is the soldier that Achilles killed? Please don't say Hector. Besides, that's a story. Our tales of Greece are based upon the stories Greeks told in their day, of course they're going to make their kinsfolk seem mighty and superhuman, to please their audiences.


The quote actually says that it was superior to all the hauberks, not necessary all the plated arms, if Rohan had any... Moreover, doubt Gondor gave exactly the same armor to Rohan they kept for themselves. Finally, Gimli was not a simple dwarven soldier himself either...
In that case, I can say that the war between Gondor and Mordor lasted for hundreds of years... Come on, you seriously not going to say that Dwarves actually fought more in the third age(even considering all dwarven kindoms against one relm of men)?
And again as you say jumping back to the movies: where is it seen in the films that dwarven armor was superior to Gondorian plates?
That story could have been a fact, since the Troy was found, and it was not just Hector who was slained by Achilles... However, that was not the point I was making - the point was agility often dominates strength... :p

I really wouldn't bother Zimoo. Nertea presented those exact same things ages ago. He just ignored them. He seriously thinks he's having a serious debate.


It seems to me that you ignored mine. Those facts did not prove his point... Serious or not serious - discussions are always good and stimulating...

IIS.... the two pics you posted...

You do realize that those dwarves has an, as said, run-of-the-mill armor..
They aren't armored up like they'd be if they were going to fight.. they can't be too heavy if their traveling, and since Gimli's armor is superior to the king of rohan(?), they should be freakin' awesome... and isn't it a fact that Gimli doesn't have mithril at all? (or isn't it.. )
Maybe the lowliest first rank dwarves has an armor like Gimli (usefullness wise), or maybe a tad worse...
Still, I belive dwarves would win, but still not pwn



I do realise that :lol: But I could not find the images of the dwarves when they were given the rings and posting Gimli's battle outfit would have not proven anything, since people would claim that it was not what he was suppose to be wearing + 1 dwarf is not a good example of the entire race...
Yes, I think it was a fact...
Ok, I doubt that the lowiest ranks of the dwarves had same kind of armor that Gimli had. Moreover, even if they did, in the film (here I'm jumping back again :tiger: , just for the small point though ;) ), it would still be much inferior to Gondorian plate armor. However, (and back to the books :good: ) in the books I guess it would have been better than Gondorian :crazed: , so I guess point taken :p , but again I seriously don't think dwarven privates, simple infantry or guardians, whatever you want to call them, had same kind of armor... :p
Dwarven soldiers (privates, guardians, whatever) would have own any human soldiers, except Gondorian ones, they would definately beat Gondorian militia though. Moreover, their elite or special forces would have been able to deal with Gondorian soldiers too. This is pretty much summarizes the whole point I'm trying to make here...


How about this.

MY IDEA
Gondor are scared little chickens(wanted to swear).
Rohan are retards.
Isengard are pwnage.
Mordor are small weak little things(wanted to swear once again).
Dwarves are slow, strong little hairy guys(wanted to swear again).
Elves would kick everyone elses butts(god i wanted to swear alot).

Wish i could say the words i wanted..................


Hmmm. Interesting logic... lol

This is getting rather tiresome and repetitive.
How do you measure the intuition of Gondorians IIS? and how do you know they have more of it.


By Tolkien description of the man-kind... Plus general logic...

In the movies gondor was pussy cats(too bad i can't swear), they were getting
killed by orcs it took about 3 of them to kill 1 orc, thats how weak they are, the warg killed heaps of them(about 10) so you can't call them 'strong'.
Lmao stop posting and it will get closed


They were hit by orcs not killed... Where was the part where warg killed 10 of them? If you read appendix books to the film you would have known that it was taking up to 5 orcs in order to kill a single soldier...

The men of gondor aren't made 3 to 1 for orcs... seriously dude..
An avarage Man of Gondor would've slayed an orc most likely, but in the movies, they could've been tired, wounded, exhausted, ect... There are several things that comes in play in the movies...
probably the book too...


Good point, an average Gondorian man (which is militiaman), was not actually shown in the film, would have taken 1 or 2 orcs before dieing, properly trained soldier of gondor with full equipment would have taken more - says so in film appendix books...
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#94 Nertea

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 05:23 AM

lots of crap


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#95 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 06:33 AM

When it comes to TLotR as a source, you all should be reminded that Tolkien intended this story to be an account by Bilbo and Frodo. They might be learned but they are certainly no warriors or armourers. Besides, at least Bilbo's focus has always been lying in telling a good story, and that was Tolkien's focus as well. :crazed:

So we should all be tolerant regarding the usefulness of the book's accounts on war gear. Tolkien never meant to have it be used as an encyclopedia, or at least i believe that. It's nice and very rewarding to put all the elements together into a coherent picture, but the material certainly wasn't created to follow our whims but rather Tolkien's. :good:

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#96 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 12:50 PM

It seems to me that you ignored mine. Those facts did not prove his point... Serious or not serious - discussions are always good and stimulating...


This isn't a discussion this is a farce.

Gondorian soldiers DO always get killed in the film. They get hit, they fall down, they don't get up. Stop making crap up! I have got the books on the film there is NOTHING about taking 5 orcs to kill one Gondorian. You are just MAKING STUFF UP.

Show us these appendix books. If it's Weapons and Warfare I'll personally do my best to have this topic thrown into a deepest darkest dungeon and never ever see the light of day again. Plus I've read that book and there's nothing about it taking 5 orcs to take down 1 man.. that'd be sooo cinematic wouldn't it? As would the desperate retreat from osgiliath with all the Gondorians lying down shouting "I'm not dead!" Oh VERY cinematic. Exactly what the director wanted "All this violence is ok! None of the good guys die!"

Besides that point Weapons and Warfare is a rubbish book of book and movie inaccuracies. Bit like you in that respect.

Plus all that rubbish about Gondor milita? Yay for MORE MAKING STUFF UP!

Edited by Dain Ironfoot, 28 October 2007 - 12:51 PM.

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#97 lycan

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 02:00 PM

if you ask me why did IIS do this topic its rather sad that he bums the books in every aspect and page possible...imo

trying to prove that some major mods need "cleaning up" also this isnt a site that goes 100% by the books either nor the movie,
it goes by the creativity of the people that make the mods

Edited by elvenfury, 28 October 2007 - 02:01 PM.


#98 Bebbe

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 02:05 PM

Ok , I didn't read the whole topic , but this guy obviously believes in what he's saying.
How about we try to be better persons and let him believe in what he's talking about.

Edited by Bebbe, 28 October 2007 - 02:06 PM.


#99 Dain Ironfoot

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 02:17 PM

trying to prove that some major mods need "cleaning up" also this isnt a site that goes 100% by the books either nor the movie,
it goes by the creativity of the people that make the mods


*blinks*

Good grief! Thats RIGHT!

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#100 UltimateRanger

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 04:13 PM

Well put elvenfury
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