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Poll: Forged Blades in S.E.E?

Remove Forged Blades upgrade in S.E.E?

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#1 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 06:54 AM

I'm SOOO frustrated from Forged Blades not working as I would like them too... :p

The first obstacle was to remove all RED glow and have them BLUE instead. That worked... technically. But it still looks rather silly having weapons glow in any color. But what's really annoying me is that models have different intensity, and as far as I understand the FB is rather "hard coded" in models..

We have for instance:
- Lórien Swordsmen
- Gondor Swordsmen
- Morgul Orcs

...as a few examples of models that have far to strong intensity and if we get picky e can find more that differ from eachother when you see them side by side. Some donated models also have FB where the glow itself shows up correctly in front of some things in the enviroment whilst behind others thus creting really ugly visible bugs. I've thought a lot about what to do about FB, since even if all FB end up 100% the same and bug free, we'd still have stupid glow in the dark fx. And it would still look a bit like Star Wars... So what to do?

- Make all units get alternate weapon models?
> Sure, but I would NOT do that as a modeler. It's just WAY to much work for anyone to bare! It would also be unlogical and komplex. Just imagine Orc weapons... how could you tell them apart...

- Remove FB COMPLETELY from the game! Just scrap it all together, and maybe make something else up, as an upgrade.
> I am REALLY tempted, but that would mean a LOT of rebalancing in codes since all units would loose the extra damage gained from FB! And Armorys would lose one major purpose of existing, unless we simply make them a pre requisite for armed units to even exist?

SO... I need to brainstorm around this problem, cause one thing is for certain. We can't have this system in Beta V. It just ruins the look of the game ;) We need a solution...

Edited by Nazgûl, 08 October 2007 - 11:53 PM.

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#2 Eldarion

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 07:13 AM

That's a tough question...

I myself have a great dislike for the huge, intense glow of Forged Blades, but I understand perfectly the logic behind it: one should be able to tell from a distance whether the enemy battalion approaching your troops has a weapon upgrade or not, as this helps you make the tactical decision of whether to engage them or retreat.

With that in mind, I can't think of a good solution. The glow, in my opinion, has to go - it's huge and ugly and makes it look like a bunch of Jedi accidentally stumbled into Middle-earth :p . However, I think the Forged Blades upgrade itself needs to stay. There must be a significant visual change to the upgraded units that can be spotted from a distance, but what is the question.

I agree that new weapon models are simply too much...unless, perhaps, you used CAH weapons. That would provide you with plenty of weapons, including a wide variety of Orc weapons, that are significantly better quality than those wielded by ordinary units.

Another option would be to give units new weapon skins, rather than models, when they get Forged Blades - for example, the Uruk-hai could get an orange-tinted sword, with the look of being fresh out of the forge. The Gondor Soldiers could get a sort of blue-steel look to their sword blades, or simply have brighter silver blades, with a darker, duller steel color being the unupgraded skin.

I know that's a lot to read, but I hope it gives you some ideas on what to do - lightsabers must go ;) !
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#3 Dzhon

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 08:51 AM

I voted to get rid of them. I hate linear upgrades in general, and think there should be trade offs and/or experience requirements for different armor and weapon upgrades.

Look at what Visions is doing with Arnor - basic Ranger units have different upgrade paths (convert them into armored swordsmen and they lose their stealth ability and some speed). I wish more factions were this way with their base units...make Gondor Archers earn some experience before they can join the elite Ithilien Rangers or the Citadel Guards, or have a choice of whether you want to give your veteran Uruk horde a light armor upgrade so they can remain swift scouts or convert them into heavy infantry.

So, why not give Gondor Swordsmen a Longsword upgrade for increased damage (+50% damage, -15% attack speed)? Or a two-handed sword one (+100% damage, lose shield)?

I think with a little creativity, the base units can all get weapon upgrades that will be visible without having to resort to light sabers. Failing that, I'd be willing to have Forged Blades become difficult to spot if the trade off was getting rid of lightsabers.
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#4 zachdaddy_3000

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 09:05 AM

To be frank (does anybody say that anymore?), I really think this is one of the minor things to concern yourself with. I mean, if you really want to take the time to re-do all of the weapons, go for it. But it'll take away time spent on more important things. I don't really see the glowing as a problem. It lets you know what units are upgraded. And I just can't imagine any other way of telling you that without the "glowy".
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#5 Dzhon

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 09:22 AM

Well, I admit that I know nothing of modeling, but it seems to me that a wide range of equipment is contained via the CoH models. Is there a lot of work in, for example, the upgrade of Guardians from axes to hammers?
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#6 clonecommand

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:04 PM

I say get rid of the huge blue. Instead, a very small, yet noticible white shimmer appears on the blade. Like...Its shinnyer and higher quality looking, therefore, more cutting power? You don't have to change the blade, just the size and color of the FX.

Edited by clonecommand, 04 August 2007 - 02:04 PM.


#7 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:18 PM

What you don't get is that EVERY model would have to be edited and rebinded (as far as I know) and that is GRUSEOME work... I would NOT do it as a modeler and I can't ask anyone of my modelers to do it either... Even using finished weapons such as CaH stuff, would still mean editing all models :(

So, we need to think of seomething else. I will most likely remove the glow regardless of the effects...

Using different textures for the weaons is something I'd like Eldarion, but the problem is that most textures are very strangely mapped, as you probably know, and only some of them use a clear section of the DDS/TGA that is devoted to the weapon. Many skins, like the default Gondorian skins use sections of the skin that is also used for the armor, so even if I could map exactly where the weapon is, it would aslo affect corresponding parts of the armor = no can do :(

TDP remade the Gondorians into having separate model and skin for the swords, but doing that for all models... that's just... argh ^

So... what the heck do we do , cause the glow has to go...
1) The simplest solution would be to keep the upgrade and all effects but only remove the FX itself and thus having only tooltips that tell if the unit is FB or not... Dull and hard to micro manage, but more realistic.
2) Maybe use a second banner carrier? I mean not an additional carrier but a different banner/flag that indicates a higher level of gear/weapons? Say for gondor... light blue = standard weapons, and dark blue = FB?

*thinking*

Edited by Nazgûl, 04 August 2007 - 02:54 PM.

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#8 The Best Guest

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:37 PM

I voted to keep it.
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#9 Bruno62339

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:43 PM

i always hated it. if you get rid of it your mod will look incredibly realistic and even more awesome. but what to replace it with... no clue. :p
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#10 Garrison Nomad

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:53 PM

I know it's a lot of work, but i say new weapon models. For evil, just give em rediculously spikey weapons, and good could get better quality, like longswords for swordsmen, halberds for pikemen, etc.

It's a lotta work, but hey. It'd be really worth it in the end.
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#11 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 02:59 PM

That is not an option for reasons given above. Even IF someone would do it, which I HIGHLY doubt, then what about the Orcs? How could you upgrade a bunch of 20 different weapons into 20 different other ones unless you make them all clubs in regular and spiked things in HA, but still, too much model editing for anyone to bare...

What about the Banner? I Kinda lean towards that idea right now...


Or even change the glow of the banner instead... Right now we have banner glow only at horde level 5. But we could have one type of glow for the banner when hordes are in FB too... I think

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#12 CapnAstroSponge

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:22 PM

I don't know, I like the glow. Let's you know exactly what they've got, so you've got half an idea what they're up against.
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#13 Strider

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 03:25 PM

I think that you should remove the glow, but keep forged blades. Why do we need something to indicate if the batt has them or not? If you think about it, it only common logic to have them not look any different. You can see if the enemy has a Banner, you can see if they have HA, You can see flaming arrows. In logic the enemy can see all that. But you would have to get realyl up close and personal to tell the quality of their blades. I think the most realistic solution is to just remove the glow and do nothing else.

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#14 Eldarion

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 04:22 PM

Or even change the glow of the banner instead... Right now we have banner glow only at horde level 5. But we could have one type of glow for the banner when hordes are in FB too... I think

I like this one :p . I'm not too big a fan of the banner glow, either, but it's better than every unit in the battalion having lightsabers :) . I think you should look into the possibilities of this one.
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#15 Rob38

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 04:43 PM

hehe... I always liked the subtle blue glow for forged blades. I would keep them, but hey, it's not my mod :p I find it funny that people always talk about realism in a video game. I just laugh when they are used in the same sentence... it's just a fantasy world, not real life :)

Anyways, if you go with the banner carrier solution Naz, what happens if the banner carrier is killed? I guess you don't know if they have forged blades anymore unless the carrier is revived. Another solution would be to put a small icon above the horde like they do with the dots for experience levels. You can indicate that they have the forged blade upgrade maybe with a blue dot or something :p

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#16 IthronAiwendil

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 04:48 PM

I think the glow is ok, but if you wish to get rid of it, color the exlnzflar2.dds and exlnzflarred.dds files to black. That removes the glow, but the effect stays. IMO it doesn't matter if your opponent can't tell if you have FB or not...

#17 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 05:13 PM

It's not so much about "realism," but trying to capture the look of the films. I'd like to lose the banner glow, too.

If you want to play with the banners, consider giving them a different look as the unit gains rank.

Anyway, being able to see forged blades isn't that critical. I'm not a huge Warcraft III fan, but its the most popular fantasy RTS out there and almost no one complains that upgrades aren't visible.

#18 Dzhon

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 05:14 PM

Shoot. That was me. ^^^
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#19 Nazgûl

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 07:38 PM

I don't mind not seeing them either, but the problem is this: when should you know when to upgrade a horde or not? I mean, how can you tell. We must have SOME sort of indication and anything is better than neon glow on a "medieval weapon" :p

hehe... I always liked the subtle blue glow for forged blades. I would keep them, but hey, it's not my mod ;) I find it funny that people always talk about realism in a video game. I just laugh when they are used in the same sentence... it's just a fantasy world, not real life :)

Anyways, if you go with the banner carrier solution Naz, what happens if the banner carrier is killed? I guess you don't know if they have forged blades anymore unless the carrier is revived. Another solution would be to put a small icon above the horde like they do with the dots for experience levels. You can indicate that they have the forged blade upgrade maybe with a blue dot or something ;)

I beg to differ a bit Rob38... :p I think we could use the word "realism" in a game just as in a movie. A REALLY good movie makes you cry, laugh, smile, shiver or even jump out of your chair... kind of - right? ;) And even if you know it's a move, you still enjoy it and you can actually refer to it as being very realistic. Now this is a game and off course (with this engine) there are certain limitations on how far you can reach towards realism, but you have to agree that it sorta looks a bit more realistic now than in retail version? ;) The term realistic is not meant to be read as "just like reality" but rather "as realistic as possible" and glowing swords is not :)

And dying BC's respawn pretty fast =) But I do like the idea of a symbol. Perhaps the subtle CaH star above the horde? :D


I think the glow is ok, but if you wish to get rid of it, color the exlnzflar2.dds and exlnzflarred.dds files to black. That removes the glow, but the effect stays. IMO it doesn't matter if your opponent can't tell if you have FB or not...

Really? But isn't the glow itself often defined in the model? I mean the light/intensity? I know the color of (some) units can be controlled på that texture though...

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#20 IthronAiwendil

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Posted 04 August 2007 - 07:43 PM

You can disable the glow by having a black .dds file called exlnzflar2.dds in your mod's files. It works, I've tried :)




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