56 replies to this topic

[el kevo]

actually the WK could be killed just like Sauron. once dead he would have to wonder middle-earth forever nothing more as a whisper and a shadow that was harmless. at least until morgoth comes

[Allathar]

WK could be killed, Gandalf couldn't. WK was an undead man while Gandalf was a Maiar, like all other Istari and Sauron. True, WK could kill Gandalf's body, but Gandalf's spirit would remain and sent back to ME.

WK became mortal because of the magic blade Merry used, and not because Éowyn wasn't a man.

[el kevo]

WK wouldn't be able to kill gandalf. The balrog barely managed it and he was a maia so it would be almost impossible for an undead man to do it.

Doesn't amtter if he was mortal or not. Gandalf could probably cast the same exact spell upon his sword and staff and kill him just as easily but he probably decided not to due to the prophecy

[Devon]

if gandalf was so much stronger then why didn't gandalf kill wk? he had plenty of chances. he barely even escaped dol guldor and if he was as powerful as you say, why didnt he just blow it up. seriously guys, theyre about evenly matched.

[el kevo]

barely made it out of dol goldur. it was him versus saurons army of course he barely made it out. why he didn't kill him: the prophecy. lets see here he was also able to defeat ALL 9 of the nazgul on weathertop when they ambushed him before frodod and company made it.

The evidence that Gandalf is greater than the WK is great. and also yoda you haven't read or seen the book/movie in a while and i have done a proper research into this

[Zyzzyva]

Gandalf couldnt just blow up Dol Guldur because the Maia have a sort of subtle magic. Hes not a Maia of battle, but a maia of wisdom. Each Maia (and Vala) had their own category, you could say. Tulkas could fight better than Melkor, because he was the Vala of Battle, but Melkor outstripped him in anything else because Melkor was the only all around Vala. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth to help the free peoples, not walk up to Sauron and blast him to bits. They would have sent Tulkas or Orome or even Eonwe (Manwe's banner carrier, the lord of the Maiar) if they wanted that. Also, the WK is so much more than "just an undead man". His power stems from Sauron, the cheif maia of Aule, the craftsman. Sauron poured all his talent into the making of the rings, and some of his spirit, so the WK would have so of that. And remember, Sauron was WAY above Gandalf in the Maiar hierachy. Not only that, but he and the balrogs had some of Melkor's spirit. Gandalf could take on the Balrog, showing hes in no way as weak as some thought he was, but he still says "The White Wizard is mighty, but the Black much mightier still" or something along those lines. Still, the WK might have been a challenge for Gandalf, not because he was more powerful. Indeed, the WK, while being an oppenent worth remembering, could not have fought Gandalf with 4 other Nazgul, let alone himself (Weathertop). However, in order to destroy the WK, Gandalf would have to unravel Sauron, a master of creation, 's magic. Gandalf couldve easily beaten the WK to a standstill, but to destroy him is another matter.

One question ive always had though, and Im curious of others opinions, are the whole Final Battle dealy. Obviously Melkor will be there, with Sauron and Gothmog and the other balrogs, as they are immortal spirits. But will the Nazgul be there? The power of their rings have been unmade, and they are at the very least pale shadows of what they once were. But the WK's ring wasnt destroyed, only his 'flesh', so is he truely dead? And what of Glaurung, and Ancalagon, and even Ungoliant (another immortal spirit)? Will they make a return? I know Im getting off topic, but what do people think? Ive never really been sure (the topic is very opscure). Anyways, Ive said my piece

EDIT: Awww... El Kevo Beat me to posting,

Edited by Zyzzyva, 13 August 2007 - 04:11 PM.

[el kevo]

to the off-topic question:
I do believe the nazgul would be there because once they died they turned to mere spirits doomed to wander the earth until the final battle. im not sure of the not undead creatures but i'm very sure that ungoliant will be there because there is no evidence to even support she is dead.

Back on-topic:

Gandalf>All Nazgul
Sauron>Gandalf
Karsh>Cartheron (his spirit form would so kill his normal form)
Cartheron>Morgomir (Morgomir knew he was a great warrior, maybe even great enough to defeat Morgomir)
WK>The Arnor King that attacked rhudhar after WK took over
Morgomir>The prince of arnor that smashed the palantir

Oh and heres something from what i talked to Zimoo about:
el kevo says:
Gandalf>Witch-King right
Zimoo says:
Yes
(case closed)

[el kevo]

zimoo is the lotr historian person. he has read the books countless times and knows what hes talking about. read around in tolkien like forums and you can easily see why he so respected. it is not his opinion it is the TRUTH. and also if gandalf can beat all nine then what makes you think he can't beat the leader

[Devon]

lets see here he was also able to defeat ALL 9 of the nazgul on weathertop when they ambushed him before frodod and company made it.

The evidence that Gandalf is greater than the WK is great. and also yoda you haven't read or seen the book/movie in a while and i have done a proper research into this

he only fought five on weathertop, and he ran away . i read the books about 3 weeks ago, and i definatly dont respect the movies in points of lore. obviously you dont either.

Gandalf couldnt just blow up Dol Guldur because the Maia have a sort of subtle magic. Hes not a Maia of battle, but a maia of wisdom.

exactly what im saying . he wasnt focused on raw power and battle enough to kill the wk. like i said, i think they would have tied in a fight

while i respect zimoo, his word isnt the law this is a matter of opinion. i see no reason gandalf should get a bonus vs wk, even if he could kill him.

Edited by YodaWarrior, 13 August 2007 - 05:27 PM.

[el kevo]

Gandalf fought the WK and other nazguls so thats his bonus against mordor.
how do you see them tieing if he beat 5 nazguls at weathertop and one of them was WK

P.S. i just rechecked it was 5 nazguls

Edited by el kevo, 13 August 2007 - 05:29 PM.

[Devon]

because he had to run away from weathertop. and we dont know if the 5 he fought included wk i dont think. if your going for bonuses because someone fought someone, then all of rohan heroes would be good vs everyone is mordor and isen and etc.

EDIT:ffs this is getting out of hand. maybe close topic rob until we all cool down?

Edited by YodaWarrior, 13 August 2007 - 05:35 PM.

[Zyzzyva]

wait a second, im lost: who's zimoo???

[el kevo]

The WK was one of the ones he fought. im not going on the basis of who fought im going on the basis of who beat the person and gandalf was able to beat the WK and 4 other nazgul

"The Witch-king led the Nazgul in an attack on Gandalf at Weathertop on the night of October 3-4" theres teh proof WK was there at said time

Edited by el kevo, 13 August 2007 - 05:40 PM.

[Devon]

you dont know that for sure. and he didnt beat them, he ran away

[el kevo]

if he didn't beat them then he wouldn't be able to run away without a good distraction and there was no distraction

[Devon]

um, how about he didnt have the ring? thats what they were mainly there for. and they did follow him, thats why there werent as many when aragorn was there. actually, that kinda supports the fact the he didnt fight the wk there, because the wk was one of the ones when frodo was there.

[el kevo]

OMG did you not see the quote in my 2 above posts:

"The Witch-king led the four Nazgul east along the Great East Road. They were followed by Gandalf who had arrived in Bree before them. The Nazgul realized they were being followed and hid by the roadside and let Gandalf pass them on October 3.

The Witch-king led the Nazgul in an attack on Gandalf at Weathertop on the night of October 3-4. The flashes of light and fire from their battle could be seen for miles around. At dawn the next day, Gandalf escaped and four of the Nazgul pursued him for a while. "

There the WK was there. Gandlaf fought him and 4 others and beat them back

[Devon]

if he didn't beat them then he wouldn't be able to run away without a good distraction and there was no distraction

^^ thats ur entire post which u were talking about. i see no quote. rob, close this topic till we calm down plz.

Edited by YodaWarrior, 13 August 2007 - 05:50 PM.