9 replies to this topic

[plod2]

I've been reading your Kings of the West mod and you say that Gorbag is the uruk and Shagrat is the orc. Isn't it the other way around?

[GothmogtheOrc]

lol, copy of my post in THIS THREAD

No, in the books it never says what shagrat is.

Seeing as how I knew this would come up again I kept a copy of my reasoning behind making shagrat an orc and gorbag the uruk:

on page 721 of TTT "The Choices of Master Samwise" Gorbag says the following to Shagrat:

Always the poor Uruks to put slips right...

This means that atleast one of them is an uruk and the way it is said suggests that gorbag is an uruk since that saying implies that the speaker is part of the group mentioned. It doesn't say whether shagrat is an uruk or not, and the rest of the chapter uses Orcs and Uruks interchangably when talking about the two groups (shagrat's tower people and gorbag's uruks from morgul).

Interestingly if you watch the scene in the movie (which I am doing as I write this ), shagrat's book lines are almost all said by the orc... The part about everything going to the great eye was Shagrat in the book... the orc coming back to frodo after the fight was shagrat in the book (and the orc in the movie)... the movie orc is more familiar with Shelob and explains to the uruk what she does, suggesting that the orc lives in the tower and deals with shelob more often (shagrat)... the orc is also the one who orders his troops "Get him [frodo] to the tower!" a command that the commander of the tower (shagrat) would say. There are only two problem with PJ's film: it's the uruk who says "I don't take orders from stickin morgul rats" and the uruk who runs away with Frodo's mithril shirt to Barad-dur (possible reason is that sam kills the other orc in the tower so PJ had to use the uruk in this role). They NEVER actually say their names in the movie...


So, what I decided was that because PJ showed us two orcs, one an uruk and one an orc, was that shagrat should be the orc and gorbag must be the uruk.

I could be wrong, but this is the view I've taken as it makes the most sense to me. And my ideas + my mod = shagrat an orc.

If someone else has a different view on it and can back it up I might change it.

Also, keep in mind that I have to make one an orc and the other an uruk since that's what the movie did and that's what people expect to see...

-Gto

[Hebblewhite]

Hmmm. I can't say I'd ever really picked on this before. So I thought I'd do a bit of reading to satisfy my own curiosity really. Nothing More.

This is the basic jist of what I found:

Over at the Internet Movie Database (IMDB) website (which I would say is a pretty reliable source, unlike wikipedia), they have the full cast/crew listings etc.

Anyhow, in the memorable quotes section I found this:

[Gorbag advances towards Frodo with a knife]
Gorbag: I'm gonna bleed you like a stuck pig.
[Gorbag is stabbed from behind by Sam]
Sam: Not if I stick you first.

It would seem that they have Gorbag down as the Orc character and Shagrat as the Uruk. There are one or two other quotes from both characters there aswell...

There's also theonering.net with loads of info regarding characters. This is their Gorbag page:

http://www.theonerin...har/gorbag.html

It again clearly states that he is an Orc... but also goes on to refer to Shagrat as an Orc aswell. In fact they seem to use the word Ord quite liberally (as do many other sites).


And finally, there's the Thains Book (an encyclopedia of Middle Earth) over at tuckborough.net. I generally use this site if I'm trying to remember a characters name from the book etc. since it is compiled from book references. They have a page dedicated to miscellaneous Orcs here:

http://www.tuckborough.net/orcs.html

Again, they go along with the IMDB stuff in that Gorbag is the Orc, and Shagrat is the Uruk.


Anyhow, all of the material I found (and there's a load of stuff out there - and most are not reliable sources!), seems to back up what "plod2" originally posted. I'm not sure we can get a definitive answer unless we researched all of the references quoted by the Thains Book in detail looking for holes etc.

I for one cannot be bothered to do this... since it's all really unimportant in the end anyway!

Personally, I'd be happy if you called them Bill and Ben the flower pot men I'm sure there are many more important things to worry about!

[GothmogtheOrc]

From my research all internet sites have them as Gorbag the orc and shagrat the uruk... however, my post looks to the books for the info on them as that is a much more reliable source. Besides, I have more trust in the books and my own interpretation then any internet site no matter how famous or otherwise trustworthy.

-Gto

[Hostile]

Honestly people, a uruk is a modified orc. They're both orcs. But from my knowledge Gorbag is an unmodified orc.

[Hebblewhite]

@Hostile:

Very true!


@GtO:

Yep! I agree that the books are the best source of info I only mentioned Thains place because everything there is based on the Tolkien writings. (By the way... no offence meant... I usually try not to take sides on these matters! )


Hmmm. Does this conversation actually qualify us as nerds ...?

I never really thought I'd be debating the lesser origins of Orcish names etc.

Edited by Hebblewhite, 18 August 2007 - 09:13 PM.

[Mathijs]

You're on this site. That classifies you as a nerd. We are all nerds.

[m@tt]

QFT




Oh wait...

[Lauri]

*get's the hell out'a here*

[Elvenlord]

Yeah, I'm outta here......

To the outside! Tis a wonderous place......