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SEE Catapults, Ballistas, Rams & whatnot


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#1 Guest_J0nNy_*

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:38 PM

Edit: Changed topic title a bit to fit as a topic /Naz

First of all: its really nice to play your mod, it has a good feeling, u can produce big armies..all what middleearth needs (maybe the ress-buildings should produce the same if there are more than 4, so that u can build more than 20 and spam a bit more, but i heard thats in work)

Yesterday i played a bit as Goblins and i had a good Spam (10 barracks), there were much good fights beetween goblins and men, but the the men player got catapults and they killed my army with just a few shots...my trolls too, my heroes too.
is it possible that your made the damage of catas x10 or something like that to give them enough damage against buildings....when i saw this i stopped playing, cause in this version its in my oppinion just "who gets more catas and better heroes"

so it would be nice if u could change the damage of the catapults...they should be good vs structures, but not that good against (all) units


btw sry for my bad english xD

Edited by Nazgûl, 03 November 2010 - 07:38 PM.


#2 Rhodin

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:56 PM

Well, stop and think about this...if you get hit in the head with a 2 ton boulder dropping 20 metres from the air...I'm guessing one blow would kill pretty much anything, am I right? No matter what kind of critter you happen to be...man, orc or troll, that force would smash your head in a hundred times over! The best defence you have against catapults is to keep moving around so that they miss you, and flyboys take them out in one hit. :p
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#3 zachdaddy_3000

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:56 PM

Well, the purpose of this mod is to bring realism to the game. So if a unit is hit by a trebuchet or catapult or anything like that, it is GOING to hurt them....badly. So a good strategy to use is to try to destroy the catapults first, before worrying about the other units. So other units to defend the catapults is essential to playing. So it's not just "who has more catapults wins". Okay? :p
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#4 Guest_J0nNy_*

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 06:04 PM

ok catapul kills anything, but so the catapult should be killed too, but 2 goblintroops need around 20 seconds to destroy it
and yes if i get a stone of a catapult on my head im dead, but 1 stone cant kill 100 people...right?

#5 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 06:39 PM

Hey, J0nNy! Nice to see you found this place! :p

To answer your request: The one thing unrealistic about the damage of artillery munitions is the big radius of the basic damage. It shoud be pretty destructive and deadly when being hit directly and MUCH less so when being around the impact point (scattering dust, fire and heat, bent metal, ricochet rocks and ripped-apart bodies).

I'm gonna check all the weapon stats of the trebs, catapults and flying rocks/arrows and reduce the core damage radius while adding another damage nugget with a reduced damage value but the old radius.

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#6 Lord of the Rings Junkie

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 07:09 PM

Not to mention that when my treb model is incorporated the projectiles will have to be much bigger too. So it could crush most of a battalion I think, without much of a need for area damage at all.
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#7 Guest_J0nNy_*

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 08:47 PM

ill say it again: one stone can kill 1 man, maybe 1 stone, if its big enopugh can kill a half battalion, but 1 stone can't kill ~200 goblins

i think the idea of Sulherokkh is good...much less area damage

#8 anunnak

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 03:13 PM

ill say it again: one stone can kill 1 man, maybe 1 stone, if its big enopugh can kill a half battalion, but 1 stone can't kill ~200 goblins

i think the idea of Sulherokkh is good...much less area damage



Or perhaps they could keep the damage area only for the upgraded ones. :p

#9 Nazgûl

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Posted 12 October 2007 - 02:22 PM

Normally this would go into the Suggestions thread... but ok, I guess this could serve as a stand alone topic :grin:

Now to the answers:

Well, stop and think about this...if you get hit in the head with a 2 ton boulder dropping 20 metres from the air...I'm guessing one blow would kill pretty much anything, am I right? No matter what kind of critter you happen to be...man, orc or troll, that force would smash your head in a hundred times over! The best defence you have against catapults is to keep moving around so that they miss you, and flyboys take them out in one hit. :p

100% true ^

Well, the purpose of this mod is to bring realism to the game. So if a unit is hit by a trebuchet or catapult or anything like that, it is GOING to hurt them....badly. So a good strategy to use is to try to destroy the catapults first, before worrying about the other units. So other units to defend the catapults is essential to playing. So it's not just "who has more catapults wins". Okay? :ninja:

Also 100% true ^

Hey, Jonny! Nice to see you found this place! ^_^

To answer your request: The one thing unrealistic about the damage of artillery munitions is the big radius of the basic damage. It shoud be pretty destructive and deadly when being hit directly and MUCH less so when being around the impact point (scattering dust, fire and heat, bent metal, ricochet rocks and ripped-apart bodies).

I'm gonna check all the weapon stats of the trebs, catapults and flying rocks/arrows and reduce the core damage radius while adding another damage nugget with a reduced damage value but the old radius.

This is the answer I would have liked to give, but Sûl was ahead of me :good:

Not to mention that when my treb model is incorporated the projectiles will have to be much bigger too. So it could crush most of a battalion I think, without much of a need for area damage at all.

This has to be taken into consideration as well, yes ^_^

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#10 Guest_J0nNy_*

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 06:24 PM

Well, the purpose of this mod is to bring realism to the game. So if a unit is hit by a trebuchet or catapult or anything like that, it is GOING to hurt them....badly. So a good strategy to use is to try to destroy the catapults first, before worrying about the other units. So other units to defend the catapults is essential to playing. So it's not just "who has more catapults wins". Okay? :p

Also 100% true ^

lies :crazed:
if ive got 2-3 catapults they can be killed be a few horses or something like that, but if ive got 20-30 vtatapults there is no chance to kill them (only with air its possible) if i do nothing stupid--->all units need some time ti kill a cata,a cata just needs 1 second to kill all units whicha ttack the catapults in front--->no chance

#11 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 06:52 PM

Chill dude! You could have said: 'In my experience this is what happens' instead of accusing people of lying (and having an ulterior motive to do so). :crazed:

Either way, i already said i was going to look into it.

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#12 Nazgûl

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 11:37 PM

if ive got 2-3 catapults they can be killed be a few horses or something like that,
> Yes... (realism)
but if ive got 20-30 vtatapults there is no chance to kill them (only with air its possible) if i do nothing stupid
> Yes! (realism) Also, see below...
all units need some time ti kill a cata,
> Yes!! (realism)
a cata just needs 1 second to kill all units whicha ttack the catapults in front
> Yes!!! (realism)
--->no chance
> Wrong... You can attack them with Eagles or Fells, Trolls, Giants, Ents and most effectivly other Siege units like Ballistas, Trebs and Catapults. And most normal units will scatter them and keep them frpm attacking. The bottom line is that a siege units is a rather large piece of machinery, and no small unit should be able to bring them down with a few hits... :crazed: This mod is not made to be easy :p



And like Sûl said... Never insult ppl, even if you didn't intend to. And be extra careful as a newbie to this forum to upset ppl with something that was intended as a "joke" (which I guess it was) :p But as long as ppl don't know you, they can't really repsond to different "tones" in posts...

The easiest way to do that is to be humble and polite and refrain from words such as that one, that can be read wrongly =p

Edited by Nazgûl, 13 October 2007 - 11:38 PM.

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#13 Guest_J0nNy_*

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 09:14 PM

im sorry to wrote lies...if i had spoken it, it would have sounded friendly (if-sentences are hard to build for me xD)
and yes siege and air can counter siege, so u like playing this mod with siege and air ...no other units?
what i want to say is: u cant really counter them with "normal" units and i think that no realism...if it was realism the people 400 years ago would have used only siege :)

#14 Arthadan

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:07 AM

Hi all!

I have been thinking about the prominent role of siege in this mod. In the end (me at leat) end building only big catapults to smash the enmy base and the role of infantry and cavalry units is limited at best. Historically, it was very difficult to transport big siege machines and so they were build near the besieged enemy castle. I think this realistic approach could improve SEE gameplay:

- Siege machine should be far more slow-moving (25% of actual speed) and catapults should be destroyed faster (you only need to kill the crew to make it stop firing). So, they should be used to fire at long range, while the infantry prevent enemy warriors or archers get close.
- As a consequence, you need to build them near the enemy base or quite probably they will never arrive.
- Role of infantry and cavalry would be protecting the siege machines while you build them and gather a number great enough to bombard the enemy walls.
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#15 Floris

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:12 PM

I think you have some good points, and I totally agree whit you.
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#16 zachdaddy_3000

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:11 PM

Although I think they're already pretty easy to destroy (fire arrows work pretty well against them), I do agree that they should be slower speed wise.
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#17 Gfire

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 04:57 AM

Are the siege in SEE similar to in RJ-RotWK? If so, I think armor and speed should be way down. They should probably be larger, more powerfull and more expensive, too, to be more like the movie. Mordor's catapults were bigger, and there were only a few of them for the entire army at the Battle of Pelenor Fields (hundreds of thousands of orcs to a few dozen catapults.)

The ballista should be quicker and more accurate, but lower armor and damage.
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#18 morsematten

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 04:47 PM

In order to glorify siege in bfme2, walls should be way cheaper and slightly weaker. Why? If walls are cheaper, people can spend more on walls to defend the base. And if you see more walls around your enemy’s base, you will build siege like crazy in order to take down the walls.

There should be more choices when it comes to siege,
o Ballista
o Mangonel
o Battering rams
o Trebuchets
o Catapult
o Siege Tower
Some siege weapons found in the medieval age. I feel that the evil factions should have a dead corpse upgrade, which like the fire projectile upgrade for the good units, will poison enemy troops and instill fear.

I also agree to the fact that siege weapons that have flying projectiles should have a longer range.

More upgrades should be made available to all siege weapons. Was thinking of not having upgrades like banner carrier, but replace this upgrade with something more useful.

I also feel that there should be more choices of defensive structures for all factions. We have the ordinary outpost; maybe we should have a much stronger outpost that can be build outside the boundaries of the fortress. This stronger outpost should have a longer range, stronger amour as well as the ability to train certain units. It should be something like a hill fort, a structure that can defend itself outside the protection of the main base. This will serve certain military purpose as it can be like a second barrack somewhere on the map and it can serve as a form of surveillance or a buffer zone for the main base.

Just a thought. I believe that is bfme really exist in the world, such things would happen and exist. Perhaps it is time to start putting medieval weaponry and structures into bfme context, and try to think like leaders of the bfme era, instead of going accordingly to the book. This way, expansion of the mod will see greater light. As said earlier on, it is just a thought. I may be wrong.
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#19 {IRS}Athos

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 10:30 PM

Generally, lore is a really important part of stuff like this. :)
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#20 Arthadan

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 09:27 AM

To make it realistic, every faction would need a "siege machine builder":

*Slave master (normal orc model without armour and a whip) and some orc workers for orcs (Isengard and Mordor).
*Rohan peasants and an architec (maybe a citizen model?) for Rohan and Gondor.
*Unarmored Dwarven miners (no architec) for Dwarves
*Unarmored Moria goblins and Mordor slave master for Goblins
*Unarmored Corsair and orc workers for Evil Men
*Galadriel in sexy tight leather clotes with a whip...errr, ,no! I mean, Elven workers (Elven builder model with orc worker axe).

They would work as follow:
-it would be an small horde (architec with 3 or 4 workers) and they could be purchased in the workshop or equivalent for each faction.
-You purchase the siege machines models as upgrades (and "pure" upgrades such fire stone for catapults) in the workshop, but you don't build them there.
-These "working teams" build as builders, but only build unlocked siege machines (siege machine type purchased in the workshop). It means they "disappear" as builders while constructing and you see the "dust cloud" and construction progress bar.
-They fight as orc workers/peasant in melee and they.

In short, you purchase them in you workshop within your base, you take them near the enemy base and you protect them while they (slowly) build the siege machines because the machines are too slow and weak to travel from your base to there. To make it more real, I'd rather make catapults and ballista non-moving at all (you know it's unbelievable two guys push the whole machine), but with a longer range (we need they're not destroyed while building by enemy watchtowers or wall defenses).

Edited by Arthadan, 05 December 2008 - 09:36 AM.

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