67 replies to this topic

[Gfire]

I think they will need to carry the resources around with them for that to work. What about a pack/unpack feature like the trebuchets in Age of Empires II. They could be built as some pieces of wood on wheels, with workers pushing it around, and then you can unpack it into a version that will actually shoot, but it won't be able to move. The workers can stick around and work the machine. This will make it more vulnerable, and less overpowered.

[Mordor Slayer]

That's a nice solution =). It would involve some modelling, but maybe we can pull it of. We'll have to wait for Nazgûl's reply.

[Lauri]

don't know if it's been mentioned (haven't read the whole thread), but you do all realize that one good point in keeping the movable-siege machines is, because they've got to be made in a safe zone? In real life, they weren't made close enough so that the enemy could just send 5 riders to take it out in a whip.. ain't no real purpose on having your entire army in a single spot to help the building I mean

And also, the reason for killing off the machine w\crew, and not just the crew, is because, if you've got the chance, I'm sure you'd like to make the machine unusable, in case they come again, and just assign a couple of guys on it, and there you have a new siege machine... taking down the crew only would only result in a lot of crappy unusable siege machines standing around and making a big pile of mess...

Remember, this mod is scaled down from real life... instead of thousands of troops on the battlefield, there's maybe a hundred, or two... Units don't march, they run all the time... Two guys push the machine because it would be a waste to have 10 when that's half a horde... Besides, everything can't be realistic... it's a game
In the movies, the catapults have wheels... so should the game ones

edit: and about the AoE2 idea.. It could work, but after seeing it the way RA did it (Gondor treb), it's a hell of alot of work.. maybe not the worst modeling, but sure as hell a lot of hard animating....

Edited by Lauri, 06 December 2008 - 09:27 PM.

[Gfire]

In AoE2 there were also Onagers, which were very similar to the Gondor Trebuchets. They didn't have very good range, though, compared to the packed ones.

[Lauri]

didn't have a crew either

[Fishbone]

well, we all agree that aoe trilogy is awesome!

[Gfire]

None of the siege units had a crew in AoE2, but that doesn't really mean anything significant for this mod.

[witchkingshour]

I actually never seen a siege tower build and even if it was , don't really find a use for it. Even in Minas Tirith, even if you a lot of orcs in it, the Trebuchets and towers will anililate it, so be easier just to build Catapults.

[Damrod]

If you are that into realistic siege, play Medieval II: Total War. As for the other ideas, I think that siege is fine for the most part. Catapults are to act as building bombardment and as artillery to clumps of enemy units. If catapults get "nerfed", there would be no real point to getting them.

However, there is room for improvement. The bouncing shot of the Mordor catapults needs to get nerfed a little. I think that when the shot bounces the first time, it deals half of the initial damage, and when it bounces the second time it deals half of the half damage. (1/4 initial damage) Also the shot bouncing through buildings is kind of dumb, so that could use fixing. Also mountain giants are a bit overpowered. At level 1 they are fine, being a siege elite unit, but they level up freaking fast and at level 5 pretty much nothing short of heroes can take them down. Maybe just dispense with the level so that they are more like ents.

[Sûlherokhh]

Good observations. Fixing the catapults should be no problem at all, coding-wise.

[Prince of the Dark Forest]

I gather this thread is about improving siege gameplay in general. I was thinking that because they are quite weak (can be taken down by a battalion of knights or even just one fellbeast) at the moment, you could implement a power called 'Repair'. The trebuchet would become immobile and out of action for a period of time whilst the crew fix it. It might need animations but is there a way to make the gondor soldiers (who drive the machine) use the Gondor Builder animations for fixing? Of course, the danger will be that you can't protect your trebuchet by moving it whilst its healing.

Is this a good idea?

[Troll Ranger]

Any chance of making catapults smarter? As in, not launching at a hero surrounded by three squads of my guys, blowing them to bits and letting the hero go unscathed? Or maybe attacking the enemies' battle towers before attacking their farms? Right now they're just so...dumb.

[Sir Takamahri]

Arthadan, you mentioned exactly what I've been thinking about lately! Siege weapons are hard to kill = realistic... siege weapon CREW hard to kill = unrealistis. If you attack a siege weapon, would you attack the wooden structure itself... or simply the dudes manning it (THE TROLLS! Aim for the trolls!)? I've just recently posted a comment in the Beta V suggestion thread saying something similar (plus another 2 suggestions for Grond). About the unpacking thing, it sounds good but it just might be overdoing it a little. I don't know.

[drogoth232]

If you are that into realistic siege, play Medieval II: Total War. As for the other ideas, I think that siege is fine for the most part. Catapults are to act as building bombardment and as artillery to clumps of enemy units. If catapults get "nerfed", there would be no real point to getting them.

However, there is room for improvement. The bouncing shot of the Mordor catapults needs to get nerfed a little. I think that when the shot bounces the first time, it deals half of the initial damage, and when it bounces the second time it deals half of the half damage. (1/4 initial damage) Also the shot bouncing through buildings is kind of dumb, so that could use fixing. Also mountain giants are a bit overpowered. At level 1 they are fine, being a siege elite unit, but they level up freaking fast and at level 5 pretty much nothing short of heroes can take them down. Maybe just dispense with the level so that they are more like ents.

Hear, Hear. Medieval II was made by SEGA and what not they are better. But anyway's I agree. The Mountain Giants are WAY to nerfed.

[witchkingshour]

I found that ents and Mountain Giants do more damage than Catapults... Ents are so hard to kill and the A.I. build them pretty early which is why I hate facing elves! But on topic, my thing with siege is should be very resistant to arrows... Once you roll them into the enemy base, all targets are on them and they go down quickly.. Except Grond of course!

[Lil John3464]

As this seems to be the siege suggesstion thread i decided to throw a couple thoughts into the mix.

First and foremost mordor is easily the most overpowered faction in the game, mainly because siege. And because of the fact that this game has been made only winnable via siege(ok not entirely unless you want to spend 5 hours and use about 20000 trooops to win, lets get real you need siege or several palantir powers to win) i don't see how thats very fair. Firstly most factions,besides elves, do not have siege that can protect itself from close units, mordor has the cave trolls, which are verrrrrrrry efective at protecting themselves and do great building damage. Second mordor is the only faction with a siege item anywhere near as powerful as the grond, 50000 Hp makes it very hard to destroy, especially when its sent in with some attack troll protection. Third mordor is the only faction with siege that countinues to roll after it is shot, obliterating units. And finally they have the mumakil, which honestly are not the best but still hard to take down and are yet another siege weapon given to a faction that already has more than everyone else. Trolls are expensive and slow to build but i have won easily many a time by simply spamming some low orcs for the first few minutes of the game, getting my farms set up, then building trolls like nuts and working on the grond or some mumaks. I mean the medium hard or brutal ai have all fallen to this exact strategy just because this is a siege heavy game and mordor has the most siege.

Ok sorry about the long winded mordor complaints but i thought they should be looked at. Next a suggestion about the trebuchets and siege units in general. I think after a certain point of damage, lets say 1/4 or 1/3 damage for the sake of example, the siege weapon loses its crew, making it immobile, the crew is either 1) set on a timer to respawn or 2) can be rebuilt as an "upgrade" to the treb, basically either way they are respawned at the treb. This makes it more realistic because the trebs are not as unstoppable by units, you can just do a 3rd damage then move onto the next one(or entirely destroy it depending on strategy). It also makes it more realistic in that the crew should be able to be killed, i mean crew should not be as tough as the catapult itself.

finally i think that a trebuchet should be able to outrange the battle towers. I'm tired of my treb being destroyed by fire arrow upgraded battle towers, which happens quite quicly btw(realistic, treb is wood gets lit on fire). A trebuchet is artillery a battle tower is a watchtower to kill approacching units, it should not equal the range of trebs.

[Lord Fox]

I totally agree with you Lil John. Its always been hard to win a battle when your men and your trebuckets gets destroyed every time they go against one battle tower, it takes so long to build one to.

[Emperor of the East]

"Orcs and Men for Evil Men" ~ yamsinacan

What the... Orcs in a human faction? I'm not up for that. As IthilienRanger732 said, lore is important in these matters. Orcs were never a part of the Serpent's Humans Army, as I call them. So, the Siege-weapon builders should be regular desert laborers, looking like the Battles of Gondor MotE proter skin (only using rohan peasant skeleton), and the siege weapons for the factions I would recommend:

Gondor and Rohan: Trebuchets

Lorien: Ents

Erebor: Double-armed Catapults

Isengard: Uruk-hai Ballistas

Mordor: Orc Catapults and Trolls

Moria: Mountain Giants and Trolls

Rhun and Harad: Chariot Mounted Machines and Mumakil

Edited by Emperor of the East, 17 February 2011 - 01:18 AM.

[yams in a can]

I think you should use some form of slaves for the Rhun faction. When Aragorn (in the book) defeated the Corsairs, he freed many of their slaves. I think the Rhun people were also cruel and they would have slaves to.