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#1 Hostile

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 04:37 PM

Well the far left has been using every method possible to end the war in Iraq. First they tried to cut funding to the troops. That did not go well with the American people.

Than they tried a referendum on creating a timeline to leave Iraq. Didn't go over well and they lost.

Now they have sunk even deeper in dreprivity, now they know 60% of supplies going to Iraq move through Turkey. So they are now trying to piss off Turkey in the hopes that Turkey will stop supplies from moving through thier country to help cripple the war effort.

http://edition.cnn.c...ref=mpstoryview

Why has it become so important now to identify a genocide that happened back in 1912? That's ancient history. But not to democrats. They are pulling no punches in doing what ever it takes to cause America to lose the war.

Democrats want America to lose, it suits thier purpose. Winning the war only alienates them more. The left in the US is so far left that does not tolerate diversity of opinion. Take the leading republican presidential candidate for example.

Giuliani is a republican who is pro choice, and leading the polls for republican candidate. Yet do you think the democrats would tolerate a candidate who is pro life for democratic candidate, of course not.

There is no diversity of views in the democratic party. There is only absolute tyranny. Do what I say or else, think what I think or else I'll sick moveon.org on your ass.

They intimidate democratic candidates into submission, and it's not fair. There are great democratic candidates, unfortunately they are currently being held hostage by the far left.

It's nice to see the democratic far left is strong on human rights when dealing with the Otoman Empire. (which no longer exists?! :) )

#2 Soul

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 07:00 PM

So that's why the US was trying to pass that law and who was behind it.
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#3 MSpencer

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 08:16 PM

Stop overreacting, demonizing the democrats, and supporting mass genocides practically on the scale of the Holocaust.
Let's define genocide.
The systematic elimination of an easily definable group based on characteristics such as race, religious beliefs, ethnic identity, or any discriminatable category.
From 1915 to 1917, the Young Turks needed a scapegoat. They found one in the Armenians, deporting over 1.5 million of them and massacring hundreds of thousands. They even clearly planned it, and before the genocide of the masses, on the 24th of April, 1915, they rounded up and deported 250 Armenian intellectuals (1). In 1914, after the failed Turkish offensive on Baku, they launched a systematic program of propaganda aimed at forcing the Armenians out of Turkish lands. And when it finally came down to it? In 1915, they legalized the deportation of the Armenians with the Tehcir Law, providing also for the formation of labour battalions, most of which resulted in, oh, death.
Stop politicizing genocide. The Ottomans murdered people, lots of people, and the Young Turks were essentially totalitarian loving monsters. Isn't it worth noting that there's nothing in their that holds the modern government of Turkey culpable for mass murder? It's simply a statement of memorandum to the President that foreign policy should reflect the systematic murder of an ethnic group by a totalitarian regime which preceded the current one. The modern Turkish state has made leaps and bounds since 1915, but ultimately, it was their precursors who made the mistake of... well... mass murder. It's not something the United States hasn't done, you know.
Unfortunately, Turkey, since the time of Mustafa Kemal, has been a very proud (Read: NATIONALIST) country. This is simply a reaction to what they no doubt view as an insult, but ultimately, this has nothing to do with Iraq. The Turks conducted a mass murder, and it should be recognized as such. Even if Turkey were disrupted as a method for movement of supplies, there's always the more expensive airlift option. Plus, if the Congress actually wanted out of Iraq, they'd just pass a resolution demanding the removal of troops from Iraq. It would almost certainly pass.
Don't think you're on to anything special here, Congress is too dumb for that. But you were able to defend genocide like you love the idea of killing Armenians. Good job.

Edited by MSpencer, 15 October 2007 - 09:21 PM.

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#4 Soul

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 08:57 PM

Stop overreacting, demonizing the democrats, and supporting mass genocides practically on the scale of the Holocaust.
Let's define genocide.
The systematic elimination of an easily definable group based on characteristics such as race, religious beliefs, ethnic identity, or any discriminatable category.
From 1915 to 1917, the Young Turks needed a scapegoat. They found one in the Armenians, deporting over 1.5 million of them and massacring hundreds of thousands. They even clearly planned it, and before the genocide of the masses, on the 24th of April, 1915, they murdered 250 Armenian intellectuals (1). In 1914, after the failed Turkish offensive on Baku, they launched a systematic program of propaganda aimed at forcing the Armenians out of Turkish lands. And when it finally came down to it? In 1915, they legalized the deportation of the Armenians with the Tehcir Law, providing also for the formation of labour battalions, most of which resulted in, oh, death.
Stop politicizing genocide. The Ottomans murdered people, lots of people, and the Young Turks were essentially totalitarian loving monsters. Isn't it worth noting that there's nothing in their that holds the modern government of Turkey culpable for mass murder? It's simply a statement of memorandum to the President that foreign policy should reflect the systematic murder of an ethnic group by a totalitarian regime which preceded the current one. The modern Turkish state has made leaps and bounds since 1915, but ultimately, it was their precursors who made the mistake of... well... mass murder. It's not something the United States hasn't done, you know.
Unfortunately, Turkey, since the time of Mustafa Kemal, has been a very proud (Read: NATIONALIST) country. This is simply a reaction to what they no doubt view as an insult, but ultimately, this has nothing to do with Iraq. The Turks conducted a mass murder, and it should be recognized as such. Even if Turkey were disrupted as a method for movement of supplies, there's always the more expensive airlift option. Plus, if the Congress actually wanted out of Iraq, they'd just pass a resolution demanding the removal of troops from Iraq. It would almost certainly pass.
Don't think you're on to anything special here, Congress is too dumb for that. But you were able to defend genocide like you love the idea of killing Armenians. Good job.

Wow, I never knew that :p .

I'm glad I check this area of the forums out, cause I'm learning so much :) .
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#5 Phil

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 09:40 PM

They [the democrats] are pulling no punches in doing what ever it takes to cause America to lose the war.

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#6 duke_Qa

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Posted 15 October 2007 - 09:47 PM

can't say that i would see the congress vote on the Armenian holocaust as a democrat conspiracy against the war in Iraq - thats grasping for straws.

Personally, i am all for the reduction of funds being pumped into Iraq. the new privatized army that the US got after the neocons took over is pretty much a parasite leeching off USA. Doubling the money sent into Iraq doesn't help if the corporations that makes the stuff the rebuilding effort needs. just takes overpaid for the job and doesn't even use local labor to help the Iraqi nation to get back on its feet.


i am however worried that Turkey is going to invade the northern parts of Iraq soon, since they have been going after the PKK group and dropping bombs over the borders up there. i don't think that the PKK deserves any support since they supposedly terrorize locals to get support. but i know a few Kurds and that is a people that really deserves to get their own nation.

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#7 Hostile

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 01:52 AM

Stop overreacting, demonizing the democrats, and supporting mass genocides practically on the scale of the Holocaust.
Let's define genocide.
The systematic elimination of an easily definable group based on characteristics such as race, religious beliefs, ethnic identity, or any discriminatable category.

Even if Turkey were disrupted as a method for movement of supplies, there's always the more expensive airlift option. Plus, if the Congress actually wanted out of Iraq, they'd just pass a resolution demanding the removal of troops from Iraq. It would almost certainly pass.

Don't think you're on to anything special here, Congress is too dumb for that. But you were able to defend genocide like you love the idea of killing Armenians. Good job.

I'm not overeacting, people know why the democrats voted for it at this moment. And I don't demonize democrats, I demonise far left crazies that force agendas down the American peoples throats. If you may note I said there are many good democratic candidates. So don't go all one sided on me.

It would take 60 senators to vote in order to cut funding for the war, they will never get it so don't make it sound like it would easily pass or it would have been already.

And if you think I'm the one who noticed it all on my own, I'll add that this is already being talked about. I didn't think of it, I noticed it.

And who said I supported a genocide? YOU DID. Not me, don't put words in my mouth.

Why Turkey and why now? Its not like they are condemning Japan for WWII, or Cambodia for post Vietnam war? It is what it appears to be. Even if it was somehow coincidently, have some brains people and think before you make stupid resolutions when we absolutely need Turkey.

What's the point of pissing them off? What's it gonna accomplish that is good? Nothing. But it does have negative affects. These people need to remove thier heads from thier asses and stop using politics to undermine the war effort.

#8 Blodo

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 09:37 AM

Far left? In the US? In positions of power? That's not even possible unless you consider democrats the far left, in which case your political scale is seriously nudged to the right.

Overlooking certain actions in history due to politics is about as wrong as meaninglessly invading countries. Pelosi is simply doing what's right, standing against the current American policy of living up to the idea only where it suits them. It's not like she has a secret agenda, is constantly forming conspiracies etc. and to say she is would be pretty damn ignorant. The argument about losing the "war" in Iraq is also uncalled for. You can't lose a war in which the enemy doesn't exist anymore. I'd call it more of an occupation at this point, and you can't lose those without having your invasion force invaded.

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#9 Sûlherokhh

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:00 AM

They [the democrats] are pulling no punches in doing what ever it takes to cause America to lose the war.

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Agreed. :p

Also i must say that all U.S. political parties are all centered around a point that leans much farther to the right wing than comparable parties in other democratic nations (mainly european ones). There really is no real leftwing party in the U.S.. The Democrats are borrowing some 'lefty' ideas but they are pretty conservative themselves.

Winning the war is another point of contention. First you would need to define 'winning'. What exactly must be achieved for this conflict to be counted as 'won'. If you take military dominance in the middle east, then surely the Democrats don't hold winning as important as other matters. When the conservatives talk about winning, it is military and economic supremecy of the U.S. over the middle-east. More to the point: Exploiting and feeding the basically propaganda created fear of the U.S. public of terror attacks in their own country. I am not saying that fear is groundless, but it has been blown out of proportion, easily accomplished with the accidental help of a succesful rather big attack in New York. Strangely enough, U.S. officials and the U.S. public seem rather reluctant to take some responsibility for their previous and (more so) current foreign policies. From the outside it is quite obvious to see why the U.S. are such a prime target to terrorist hate-mongeres. They too have substantial evidence to ground their attitudes on.

I don't say any one of the two camps in conflicts is entirely right or wrong, but i say that taking a good look at yourself before judging the other and taking a break (read: withdraw from conflict) for exactly that purpose is not non-patriotic at all.

But i guess that also depends on how you define Patriotism. :)

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#10 CodeCat

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 11:26 AM

Also i must say that all U.S. political parties are all centered around a point that leans much farther to the right wing than comparable parties in other democratic nations (mainly european ones). There really is no real leftwing party in the U.S.. The Democrats are borrowing some 'lefty' ideas but they are pretty conservative themselves.


Indeed. Over here, liberals are considered right-wing, such as the VVD (People's party for freedom and democracy). The US only has moderate and right-wing, really, no doubt due to strong anti-leftist policies in the past. So in short, American democracy is a lie. You can't have democracy if not all opinions are represented.
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#11 Hostile

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:07 PM

http://edition.cnn.c...rkey/index.html

So now supply routes have to be rethought out to accommodate the Turkish reaction to the idiots in the Congress who don't have enough foresight beyond the end of thier nose.

Great idea, condemn Ottoman Empire 90 years after the genocide. The timing couldn't be better to chip away at the US war effort.

#12 duke_Qa

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:20 PM

war effort schmar schmeffort. Tyrkey has been going in the wrong direction lately. what will the US do if Turkey starts sending large amounts of troops into northern Iraq to suppress the Kurdish people under the cover of suppressing the PKK? if the US doesnt help defend the locals it could cause more trouble in Iraq.
And if the US defends against Turkish troops, how likely is it that they would be allowed to have bases in the country. even more likely, the Turkey army might besiege the bases and cause mass casualties for the US and a propaganda-victory for the fanatics.

would you blame that on the democrats aswell? I believe the democrats are still going to be in Iraq after the elections(i am pretty sure they will get the president, and i'm pretty sure the republicans won't get out of there without making it a problem for the next president), do you think they want to make their own situation worse by making the republicans remaining time worse?

if anything, i would rather worry that the republicans might try to stab the democrats in the back by hiding tons of skeletons in the closets that falls out when the democrats gets into the office. aaah, the joys of a two-party system..

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#13 narboza22

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:37 PM

Indeed. Over here, liberals are considered right-wing, such as the VVD (People's party for freedom and democracy). The US only has moderate and right-wing, really, no doubt due to strong anti-leftist policies in the past. So in short, American democracy is a lie. You can't have democracy if not all opinions are represented.


What are you talking about? :good:
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#14 Hostile

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:49 PM

war effort schmar schmeffort. Tyrkey has been going in the wrong direction lately. what will the US do if Turkey starts sending large amounts of troops into northern Iraq to suppress the Kurdish people under the cover of suppressing the PKK? if the US doesnt help defend the locals it could cause more trouble in Iraq.
And if the US defends against Turkish troops, how likely is it that they would be allowed to have bases in the country. even more likely, the Turkey army might besiege the bases and cause mass casualties for the US and a propaganda-victory for the fanatics.

would you blame that on the democrats aswell? I believe the democrats are still going to be in Iraq after the elections(i am pretty sure they will get the president, and i'm pretty sure the republicans won't get out of there without making it a problem for the next president), do you think they want to make their own situation worse by making the republicans remaining time worse?

if anything, i would rather worry that the republicans might try to stab the democrats in the back by hiding tons of skeletons in the closets that falls out when the democrats gets into the office. aaah, the joys of a two-party system..



Indeed. Over here, liberals are considered right-wing, such as the VVD (People's party for freedom and democracy). The US only has moderate and right-wing, really, no doubt due to strong anti-leftist policies in the past. So in short, American democracy is a lie. You can't have democracy if not all opinions are represented.


What are you talking about? :good:

Let's really get it all out on the table. Just because Europe is left wing socialist democracy, doesn't mean the Worlds Leader of Democracy (USA) is gonna measure it's worth against thier example. Absolutely stupid to do so.

There is little comparison of the USA and Europe. Even the falling dollar vs the euro is great news for the USA. It means our goods cost less which balance trade budgets.

Europe lost it's greatest asset long ago, the colony known as the US.

I can't speak for your nation, by my nation is pumping out left wing propaganda left and right. (No pun intended)

You have to live in my nation before you make judgements about my nation.

#15 duke_Qa

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 11:03 PM

and it would have been interesting to have you come over and live here for a while as well. bet you would easily be able to start up a business and make big money. American business philosophy goes a long way when starting a business. one day i'll prolly go over to the US for studying or working for a little while. should be interesting to see how things are over there.

Even the falling dollar vs the euro is great news for the USA. It means our goods cost less which balance trade budgets.


erm, last time i checked having to pay more for products that often are needed to produce your own goods is not a good thing. i've been on a shopping spree lately because the dollar is on a all-time low and our own currency is very high. 20-30% cheaper now than 3 years ago. having a low dollar might let you sell more stuff, but as long as you are dependant on importing about as much as you export it won't add up.

Let's really get it all out on the table. Just because Europe is left wing socialist democracy, doesn't mean the Worlds Leader of Democracy (USA) is gonna measure it's worth against thier example. Absolutely stupid to do so.


why would it be stupid? theres no such thing like immortality, theres no such thing like perfection. to think otherwise is hubris. Europe has been through alot of that through the years, and i think that our systems reflect that. we are more prone to argue and get nothing done, but i think thats much better than no argument and doing something disastrous.

luckily, communication and enlightenment have spread much further today than before. we are living in chaotic times with both great things and terrible things happening. both often connected. kinda like research and warfare.

Edited by duke_Qa, 20 October 2007 - 11:03 PM.

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#16 CodeCat

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 11:17 PM

Worlds Leader of Democracy (USA)

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#17 Phil

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 11:44 PM

I have to agree with CodeCat. How can you call the US world's leader of democracy when it has only two main parties and with a political scale from liberal to far right?
I'm not saying that extreme is better, as compared to other countries Switzerland is quite centrist, but it goes as much left as it goes right.

By the way:

You have to live in my nation before you make judgements about my nation.

Just because Europe is left wing socialist democracy, [...]


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#18 duke_Qa

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 11:57 PM

yeah, don't call it "socialist democracy", social =! socialist. to be social or not is the question, it is more a liberal/authoritarian question than left/right.

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#19 narboza22

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 12:19 AM

I have to agree with CodeCat. How can you call the US world's leader of democracy when it has only two main parties and with a political scale from liberal to far right?
I'm not saying that extreme is better, as compared to other countries Switzerland is quite centrist, but it goes as much left as it goes right.


That's because the US has a Presidential Democracy and a single member district election system. It would be different if the US had a Parliamentary or Semi-Presidential Democracy with a proportional representation system. The US system works just as well as Israel's, who has something like 22 active parties in government, or the UK's, who has 3 IIRC.
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#20 Phil

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 12:48 AM

:huh: That does still not make it "world's leader of democracy" though. Neither does it solve the problem of the political scale which is apparently oriented rather right-ish.

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