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Chavez Shut Up


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#21 Soul

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 08:19 PM

Well if it gets that far, the price has already been paid. The only question is are you going to let it get worse, or are you going to do something about it?

That's a good question.
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#22 Cossack

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 09:44 PM

I dont see why everyone is bitching about Chavez and Putin. You forget that both Russia and Venezuala are democracies.

Chavez just lost a vote (yes, a vote where the people are free to decide their own future), and Putin just won a vote. Chavez's loss proves that Venezuala is still a democracy...if Chavez was really a dictator, would he allow a referendum on the country's course of action? A referendum that was obvously fair enough so that the government could LOSE?

In the Russian election, pro-Putin parties gained 80% support, while anti-Putin parties gained only 20% support.

Im sure its HIGHLY realistic to assume that this 60% gap was caused only by meddling and censorship by the government....</sarcasm>

Face it people....Putin and Chavez are not only popular because they "deceive" the majority of the population, its because they do what the majority of the population wants done....I'm pretty sure doing what the people wants is called a democracy and not a dictatorship...

#23 CodeCat

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 11:33 PM

No, democracy is doing what the US government wants.
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#24 narboza22

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 02:11 AM

I dont see why everyone is bitching about Chavez and Putin. You forget that both Russia and Venezuala are democracies.

Chavez just lost a vote (yes, a vote where the people are free to decide their own future), and Putin just won a vote. Chavez's loss proves that Venezuala is still a democracy...if Chavez was really a dictator, would he allow a referendum on the country's course of action? A referendum that was obvously fair enough so that the government could LOSE?

In the Russian election, pro-Putin parties gained 80% support, while anti-Putin parties gained only 20% support.

Im sure its HIGHLY realistic to assume that this 60% gap was caused only by meddling and censorship by the government....</sarcasm>

Face it people....Putin and Chavez are not only popular because they "deceive" the majority of the population, its because they do what the majority of the population wants done....I'm pretty sure doing what the people wants is called a democracy and not a dictatorship...


Putin and the United Russia Party won an election that was plagued by dirty tactics and messed up voting, a UR spokesman even admitted that. The fact that Putin is popular does not make him a democratic leader. Lots of people liked Hitler and even more people loved Mao, so lets get realistic. Democracy is based on the system, not the leader.

Chavez lost because of the system that lets people protect their freedoms. That is democracy. The people said no to his undemocratic reforms.

Saying that democracy is simply "doing what the people want" is incredibly simply minded. Robert Dahl listed 7 things as a definition of democracy:
-Elected Officials in power
-Free and Fair elections
-Inclusive suffrage
-Universal right to run for office
-Freedom of expression
-Alternative sources of information
-Associational autonomy

If you fit all of that, then you are a true democracy, but if you just "do what the people want," you are democratic. Countless dictators, monarchs, and emperors would fit your definition of democracy.

No, democracy is doing what the US government wants.


Do you realize how stupid that sounds? By your standard, there must only be about 5 democracies in the world. I'm sure glad that's not true.
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#25 Rawlo

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 11:45 AM

No, democracy is doing what the US government wants.


to stop myself making this a flame war I'll limit myself to saying: Think (and look) very carefully before you say something like that, there are people here who really do not appreciate such comments.
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#26 duke_Qa

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 01:43 PM

meh, he has a right in saying it. no point in trying to suppress him for it.

i can't say that Iraq right now is a good example of US-made democracies. the culture just isn't ready yet to get the positive out of it. in 10-20 years that might change. but in the meantime the US might have gotten more than enough out of the country to make themselves a penny or two. its a win-some/lose-some situation.

both sides are usually right about something in the big picture. the US did not have pure motives attacking Iraq, but in the end it might turn out for the better. nobody is perfect.

Edited by duke_Qa, 05 December 2007 - 01:44 PM.

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#27 CodeCat

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 01:55 PM

No, democracy is doing what the US government wants.


to stop myself making this a flame war I'll limit myself to saying: Think (and look) very carefully before you say something like that, there are people here who really do not appreciate such comments.

I'm just sick of people complaining about lack of democracy whenever someone they don't like comes into power. And indeed, Iraq isn't exactly a fine example of democracy right now.
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#28 Rawlo

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Posted 05 December 2007 - 02:27 PM

fair enough, just don't use such blanket statements, I'm rather pro democracy, but you'd sooner catch me kicking americas ass then kissing it. despite the fact that for quite a while thats exactly what our old PM did, thank the lords he's finally gone
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