70 replies to this topic

[anakinskysolo]

What you say about Zsinj having an ISD at the Battle of Dathomir is not true. He had the SSD Iron Fist, not the ISD. I'm completely sure of that because I have Courtship right here at my side and I'm reading the description of the vessels orbiting Dathomir: it says that there was a repair yard in orbit and attached to it were dozens of vessels, including a SSD and many Victory-class SD. What doesn't make sense is that Han is not surprised in seeing Iron Fist intact, because he thought he had destroyed it before with his fleet in X-Wing 7: Solo Command, when what he really saw was Second Death, the debris left behind by Razor Kiss when it was destroyed, which was reattached by Zsinj later to resemble a destroyed SSD. But I'm completely sure that Zsinj had the SSD Iron Fist in the Dathomir Battle, not the ISD. So Ghostrider, I recommend you to read again this description before adding anything else, you got me confused to death

Edit: I also read in the Completely Unnoficial Star Wars Encyclopedia (www.cuswe.org) that the VSD Iron Fist served as part of Thrawn's fleet, and that there was not an ISD Iron Fist.

Edited by anakinskysolo, 07 December 2007 - 03:40 PM.

[Ghostrider]

OK - maybe not there, But I KNOW I have seen it somewhere. I'll go back to the books and find the exact reference.

[Phoenix Rising]

Yeah, the Kiss was destroyed before he could ever actually deploy it. Still pretty sloppy though on his part.

By the way, I'm so glad we're having these kind of technical discussions; it can only help to improve the accuracy of the mod . If there's anything else you guys want to talk about, just post a new topic.

[EduardPais]

read this people http://starwars.wiki.....ecutor-class)

[Pred the Penguin]

But why would an Executor run from a ship thats not even half its size?

[slornie]

I doubt that Iron Fist was fully battle ready. Apart from the huge crew requirements, maintenance and fuel/ordinance costs would be astronomical, which Zinj would be unlikely be able to afford, even with his widespread economic resources.

[jdk002]

I still agree with Pred though.. why run with a ship of that size, especially when it's not the only ship his fleet? Superior I can actually understand, though.. especially if it's an undermanned Superior-class.

I will admit, the Empire had an uncanny ability to lose superweapons and large ships to basically nothing. I mean, the first Death Star, okay fine Luke used the Force and saves the day.. but the assault on the Second Death Star? ... lol.

Edited by jdk002, 09 December 2007 - 05:28 AM.

[EduardPais]

But why would an Executor run from a ship thats not even half its size?

Fighting isn't always the answer, plus by destroying the Razor Kiss, Zsinj wanted to make the rebels believe that the Iron Fist had been destroyed.
About manning the Iron Fist, he must've had some sort of cloning facility. If you check starwarsatlas.uw.hu/ his empire was rather big, which means he could have afforded to maintain the Iron Fist operational.

Edited by EduardPais, 09 December 2007 - 01:09 PM.

[Pred the Penguin]

Fighting isn't always the answer,

To a warlord fighting probably is the answer...
lol

[Phoenix Rising]

Heh, would you scuttle another dreadnought just to make your enemies think you were dead for a few weeks? I mean, seriously, it's not like he could exactly hide the Iron Fist somewhere, NRI was bound to catch on eventually.

[slornie]

Razor's Kiss was already scrap, so it still wouldnt have been much use to him even if he hadnt used it to mislead the NR.

[anakinskysolo]

Remember that Zsinj DIDN'T destroy Razor's Kiss, it was the New Republic with the Wraiths who did it. What Zsinj did was to put together the debris of Razor's Kiss to resemble the SSD Iron Fist (he even painted it name in the debris) and THEN destroy it again.

Edit: By the way, I just saw on Wookiepedia that the armament of the Mon Remonda was the same as any Mon Calamari MC80 cruiser, with 48 turbolasers and 20 ion cannons. This implies that Iron Fist is a Superior-class SSD, because the Mon Remonda survived direct assaults against it. Anyway, I don't agree with the weaponry given to the Mon Remonda, it seems to me that it was a much more powerful vessel. Unfortunately, novel authors don't give many specifications, and that allows us to speculate a lot.

Edited by anakinskysolo, 10 December 2007 - 02:35 AM.

[jdk002]

I agree, the Mon Remonda had to be better than your normal MC80, I mean, why bother making a radical new design if you haven't improved anything..

[Phoenix Rising]

Right, but could he even have crewed/financed the addition of another dreadnought? Maybe that was the plan all along, I don't know.

I've read somewhere that the MC80B turbolasers were somehow boosted, but I'm not sure if I could find the source again. Also, according to WEG, they have better backup shields than any other MC ship, even the MC90 (8D versus 6D on everything else that I saw).

[Ghostrider]

But I'm completely sure that Zsinj had the SSD Iron Fist in the Dathomir Battle, not the ISD. So Ghostrider, I recommend you to read again this description before adding anything else, you got me confused to death

First, A BIG apology.


Yes, you are right about the SSD reference in 'Courtship' but I have tracked down the nagging source of my problem with Iron Fist being Executor Class

As we all know the Executor class is 19km long, and I remember reading somewhere that clearly indicated Iron Fist SSD was not Executor class. As I had not heard of the Superior class until this debate on PR, I always assumed incorrectly that Iron Fist SSD must, therefore have been referenced as Imperial class.

I was wrong.

In the opening section of XWing Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist is described as 'an eight kilometer warship'.

That has always confused the hell out of me because I had not come across the Superior Class until now, and as I had not read this for a while, led to my warped memory and the last few posts, which have confused everyone, including me!
Sorry about that. Learn the lesson and go back to the books and get the exact references!

However, this clear description clinches the whole argument for me.

Razor's Kiss and Iron Fist are definitely Superior NOT Executor as they are described as 8km warships.

[Pred the Penguin]

Right, but could he even have crewed/financed the addition of another dreadnought? Maybe that was the plan all along, I don't know.

I've read somewhere that the MC80B turbolasers were somehow boosted, but I'm not sure if I could find the source again. Also, according to WEG, they have better backup shields than any other MC ship, even the MC90 (8D versus 6D on everything else that I saw).

Yes, thats what made Mon-Cal cruisers so effective. But even so it shouldn't survive against even an under-crewed Executor.
19 km long! Think about that for a moment...

Edit: Oops... Didn't notice your post there Ghostrider. Anyways, I checked Wraith Squadron and it really does describe Iron Fist as an 8 km SSD.

Now that the Iron Fist/Razor's Kiss issue is over...

Edited by Pred the Penguin, 10 December 2007 - 01:25 PM.

[slornie]

[Yes, you are right about the SSD reference in 'Courtship' but I have tracked down the nagging source of my problem with Iron Fist being Executor Class

As we all know the Executor class is 19km long, and I remember reading somewhere that clearly indicated Iron Fist SSD was not Executor class. As I had not heard of the Superior class until this debate on PR, I always assumed incorrectly that Iron Fist SSD must, therefore have been referenced as Imperial class.

I was wrong.

In the opening section of XWing Wraith Squadron, Iron Fist is described as 'an eight kilometer warship'.

That has always confused the hell out of me because I had not come across the Superior Class until now, and as I had not read this for a while, led to my warped memory and the last few posts, which have confused everyone, including me!
Sorry about that. Learn the lesson and go back to the books and get the exact references!

However, this clear description clinches the whole argument for me.

Razor's Kiss and Iron Fist are definitely Superior NOT Executor as they are described as 8km warships.

The trouble is in the confusion over the true canonical length of the Executor. If i recall, it has been claimed to be both 19km AND 8km long (in different sources). So it is quite possible that Iron Fist is an Executor class, with that reference to length being written at a time when the canonical figure for the Executor class was 8km.

[EduardPais]

To George Lucas a letter about this should be written.

[anakinskysolo]

And you think he cares? He hasn't read any novel of his OWN universe and he will care about the length of the Executor? Believe me, to George Lucas, the movies are the only thing that matters.

And I agree with you, Slornie, just because in one novel Iron Fist was described as an eight km warship doesn't mean it was 8 km, remember that oficially it WAS on those times. More importantly, even Lusankya was described as an 8 km warship, in The Krytos Trap, and we all know that Lusankya is an Executor, being the sister ship of Darth Vader's Executor.

[Pred the Penguin]

It just doesn't make sense how Zsinj used his SSD if it was an Executor...