I play the rebels for some time now, and I think the defend ability is overpowered especially for the bigger ships. Shields are already very powerfull in this mod and with defend, you can negate huge amounts of shield damage and bring back your shileds to full power in just a few seconds.
'Defend' overpowered?
Started by Zarkis, Jan 04 2008 06:13 PM
24 replies to this topic
#2
muneyoshi
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Posted 04 January 2008 - 06:31 PM
I play the rebels for some time now, and I think the defend ability is overpowered especially for the bigger ships. Shields are already very powerfull in this mod and with defend, you can negate huge amounts of shield damage and bring back your shileds to full power in just a few seconds.
normally I would agree with you.. BUT.. that was what kpt the rebel cap ships in space.. they have many redunant/back up shield genartors.. if you check fire power... without that ability a MC cap ship would not have a prayer.. and it is canon to have them with such damnedable shields.. especially for MC cap ships
#4
Dane Kiet
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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:03 AM
but, the mon cal ships are SUPPOSE to beat Imp stars (at equal tech lvls) What gives the empire an edge is the number of fighters. If you can stall the enemy long enough to deploy your whole wing, you can send your bombers off to the side and have them attack the MC while your fighters engage theirs and the bombers. If the enemy fighters turn around, they get pounded by your's without returning fire. then, your capital ships can broadside each other, but the imp will win cause of the bombers.
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#5
muneyoshi
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Posted 05 January 2008 - 04:25 AM
but, the mon cal ships are SUPPOSE to beat Imp stars (at equal tech lvls) What gives the empire an edge is the number of fighters. If you can stall the enemy long enough to deploy your whole wing, you can send your bombers off to the side and have them attack the MC while your fighters engage theirs and the bombers. If the enemy fighters turn around, they get pounded by your's without returning fire. then, your capital ships can broadside each other, but the imp will win cause of the bombers.
I disagree.. it was teh mon cal designes focusing on def (ie shield power and back up systems).. the skill of the crews that would lead to a win.. NOT the ships themselves.. even the rebels knew this canonly.. which is why they spent so much time AVOIDING the Imperial fleet instead of engageing it.. if they could win easily in ship to ship combat they wouldn't have had to run so much.. yes bombers on BOTH sides proved critial in many battles.. but if you took away the fighters.. pointed the nose of a ISD at a MC80.. have both in opitimal fireing.. MC80 will eventually go down.. as it should.. there are many reaon why in books and moves it doesn't.. and it all revoles around crew skill.. luck and moral.. the rebels always trained their crews better.. and this was most evident in fighter combat.. not only are X-wings more durable and shielded.. the poilts were always more skilled
#6
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Posted 06 January 2008 - 03:16 AM
Muneyoshi is right. If the Imperial-class wasn't better, why go to such lengths to capture and refurbish them like the NR does? You could just build new MC80s.
#7
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Posted 06 January 2008 - 04:47 AM
Well, the Imp ships can't have their shield generators targetted any longer, nor do their shields drain completely from boosted firepower mode. So that makes up for it somewhat.
I'm finding it's not too bad balance-wise, personally. *shrug*
I'm finding it's not too bad balance-wise, personally. *shrug*
#8
Dane Kiet
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Posted 06 January 2008 - 03:10 PM
Cause it's cheaper to steal a ship then to make a new one. And Mon Cals ran during the rebellion cause, if the ship was killed (their strenghs are about equal in the grand scheme of things, so the mon cal could still die if the ship's crew was better), the rebellion would lose more of a portion of thier fleet then the empire would if thier ship was lost, since the imperial fleet was larger.Muneyoshi is right. If the Imperial-class wasn't better, why go to such lengths to capture and refurbish them like the NR does? You could just build new MC80s.
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#9
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Posted 06 January 2008 - 05:10 PM
Well, I know that, but they went out of their way to capture them and put them in the front of the fleet. The Empire never did with the MC80s.
#10
muneyoshi
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Posted 06 January 2008 - 07:14 PM
Cause it's cheaper to steal a ship then to make a new one. And Mon Cals ran during the rebellion cause, if the ship was killed (their strenghs are about equal in the grand scheme of things, so the mon cal could still die if the ship's crew was better), the rebellion would lose more of a portion of thier fleet then the empire would if thier ship was lost, since the imperial fleet was larger.Muneyoshi is right. If the Imperial-class wasn't better, why go to such lengths to capture and refurbish them like the NR does? You could just build new MC80s.
you aso have to think about this.. these ships were not originally built for combat.. they were cruise liners! The Mon Cals RETROFITTED them.. MC ships are also "works of art.. with each one being unique".. granted this would be next to impossible to put into a game but due to that they took longer to build.. even when they were being built as a combat ship "artistic" qualities still abounded and each shipwright made each vessel slightly different.
Your point about the MC crews is even MORE important then you think.. if you crewed them solely by say.. humans.. they would probably not be nearly as effective.. the ships systems, down to the controls on the bridge and the life support settings, were all made to best suit a MC crew, yes you can change the life support settings but even the controls were made to be used by Mon Cal hands.. not human ones.. between that and the fact the SD's, partically ISD's, were better combat ships with larger hanger bays and more suited to human crews made it necessary to build.. or refit those Imp ships they loved to steal
#11
Dane Kiet
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Posted 07 January 2008 - 01:14 AM
oops, i just realized, i only think they are better cause of the range factor. The mon cals deploy normal turbos, while the impstar employs a mix of heavy, mid, and light. I'm used to staying out of reach of those small guns in my tactics and in the star wars universe i apply the same logic, even though THEY don't. Hence the fact ackbar goes "WTF, ATTACK THEM THAT CLOSE!!!"
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#16
Ghostrider
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Posted 07 January 2008 - 04:29 PM
Well, I know that, but they went out of their way to capture them and put them in the front of the fleet. The Empire never did with the MC80s.
Yeah. The Mon Cal made them unstealable because the bridge controls were wired for moncalamari physiology (specifically their eyes). Humans couldn't read Mon cal screen schematics. Kinda makes it a problem for Imps to use them.
It was only the much later models that actually designed uniform controls. All Mon-cals HAD to have Mon Cal bridge crew up to that point, giving them immense political power. Don't you just love their psychology. Their technology actually improved their political clout as well as their military! Something the Bothans never managed (Which is why Borsk Feyyla hated Admiral Ackbar so much - envy).
Edited by Ghostrider, 07 January 2008 - 04:31 PM.
#17
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Posted 07 January 2008 - 11:05 PM
This is true. The Empire did try to capture assault frigates.
I wonder if the Ralroost-class was a direct response to this more than the overt reason of Bothan security... Didn't the air on them have a "nutty" smell or something similarly ridiculous?
I wonder if the Ralroost-class was a direct response to this more than the overt reason of Bothan security... Didn't the air on them have a "nutty" smell or something similarly ridiculous?
#18
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:24 PM
While I know that this is an extreemly old topic, and has probably been discussed before, I would like to put in my 2 cents having had a problem of this kind.
One battle saw 2 of my ISD 1's and 8 Dreadnaughts against 4 mon cals 80s and a golan 2. There were other support ships on the reb side, but other wise it was pretty much a straight fight between the 80's, the isd's and the dreads. I managed to get myself into a position where I had the isd's and 2 dreads hit 1 mon cal. After about a minute of firing, its shields had not at any point gone below 1/2 strength, and they had often regenerated even under the "increase firepower" power of all 4 ships. I lost 4 dreads and 1 isd in that game, and when I returned with 2 praetors and an isd, that same cruiser still lasted for some time, and even managed to regenerate its shields pretty well under the fire of all 3 vessels.
While I know that these 80's are meant to have redundant shield generators, it seems abit odd that an isd cannot go toe to toe with one, and using the rights tactics, win. Of course, "Iron Fist" has mon remonda survive the fire of iron fist will little trouble, but I would have thought manouvring and a slim target profile would have mattered as well as shields.
If I may make a (probably useless) suggestion:
If the 80 and other mon cal cruiser ships were given 2 more shield "bars" and lost the regenerate ability, you would have to knock down more defenses, but would not see your efforts simply vanish after a time while your own vessels suffered shield losses (bearing in mind that they can do this any number of times- in the battle I first mentioned they were essentially invulnerable). Then if they were to lose the regenerate ability (the shield strength is now essentially "innate" rather than an active proporty). Then they were to get better manouverability (1/3rd more?) so that they can make some hits, lose a shield and retreat out of range, while the redundant shield protectes them in addition to their already slimmer collision detection mesh (compared to an isd).
Therefore they retain their strengths, but the destroyer has the capability to beat it one on one if it uses the right tactics- it closes the range and stays with it, possibily using its greater frontal armament at first. The mon cal seeks to do some damage then withdraw slightly out of range, then repeat, but always stay out of the way of the majority of the destroyer's weaponry for a prolonged period of time.
Just some thoughts- its just that with an isd on isd engagement (pirates this time) I found that manouvre in the game was treated pretty well; closing the range with frontal armament, firing side on broadsides to increase the enemy's damage while recieving less of its yourself, and then avoiding any return salvos. With mon cals versus isds it seems to be a slugging match the isd cannot win. It just seemed abit odd. Other than that, the mod is extreemly well done- especially with such a small modding team. My hat off to you gentlemen!
One battle saw 2 of my ISD 1's and 8 Dreadnaughts against 4 mon cals 80s and a golan 2. There were other support ships on the reb side, but other wise it was pretty much a straight fight between the 80's, the isd's and the dreads. I managed to get myself into a position where I had the isd's and 2 dreads hit 1 mon cal. After about a minute of firing, its shields had not at any point gone below 1/2 strength, and they had often regenerated even under the "increase firepower" power of all 4 ships. I lost 4 dreads and 1 isd in that game, and when I returned with 2 praetors and an isd, that same cruiser still lasted for some time, and even managed to regenerate its shields pretty well under the fire of all 3 vessels.
While I know that these 80's are meant to have redundant shield generators, it seems abit odd that an isd cannot go toe to toe with one, and using the rights tactics, win. Of course, "Iron Fist" has mon remonda survive the fire of iron fist will little trouble, but I would have thought manouvring and a slim target profile would have mattered as well as shields.
If I may make a (probably useless) suggestion:
If the 80 and other mon cal cruiser ships were given 2 more shield "bars" and lost the regenerate ability, you would have to knock down more defenses, but would not see your efforts simply vanish after a time while your own vessels suffered shield losses (bearing in mind that they can do this any number of times- in the battle I first mentioned they were essentially invulnerable). Then if they were to lose the regenerate ability (the shield strength is now essentially "innate" rather than an active proporty). Then they were to get better manouverability (1/3rd more?) so that they can make some hits, lose a shield and retreat out of range, while the redundant shield protectes them in addition to their already slimmer collision detection mesh (compared to an isd).
Therefore they retain their strengths, but the destroyer has the capability to beat it one on one if it uses the right tactics- it closes the range and stays with it, possibily using its greater frontal armament at first. The mon cal seeks to do some damage then withdraw slightly out of range, then repeat, but always stay out of the way of the majority of the destroyer's weaponry for a prolonged period of time.
Just some thoughts- its just that with an isd on isd engagement (pirates this time) I found that manouvre in the game was treated pretty well; closing the range with frontal armament, firing side on broadsides to increase the enemy's damage while recieving less of its yourself, and then avoiding any return salvos. With mon cals versus isds it seems to be a slugging match the isd cannot win. It just seemed abit odd. Other than that, the mod is extreemly well done- especially with such a small modding team. My hat off to you gentlemen!
#19
feld
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 01:46 PM
Welcome!
While I think that a change to the representation of the Mon Cal's regenerative shield ability in the mod like you suggest is a good idea, I want to explore your situation a little more. I'm pretty much entirely an Imperial player and I love ISDs. I haven't had the same experience that you have against MC80s. When my ISDs close the range, the MC80's shields start going down fairly quickly due to massed fire from the ISD's short range turbolaser batteries in addition to their heavies. The 80 typically gets one shield regen in but dies before the "defend" ability recycles a second time unless he can get out of range.
But it looks like you close the range with your ISDs too but can't get the MC80 shields below half strength after a minute of firing. I am understanding your situation correctly?
Another thing that's confusing me is that you're apparently seeing a single MC80 regenerate her shields multiple times in a few minutes. Do I read you right? (the ones I kill don't do it that fast.)
v/r
feld
While I think that a change to the representation of the Mon Cal's regenerative shield ability in the mod like you suggest is a good idea, I want to explore your situation a little more. I'm pretty much entirely an Imperial player and I love ISDs. I haven't had the same experience that you have against MC80s. When my ISDs close the range, the MC80's shields start going down fairly quickly due to massed fire from the ISD's short range turbolaser batteries in addition to their heavies. The 80 typically gets one shield regen in but dies before the "defend" ability recycles a second time unless he can get out of range.
But it looks like you close the range with your ISDs too but can't get the MC80 shields below half strength after a minute of firing. I am understanding your situation correctly?
Another thing that's confusing me is that you're apparently seeing a single MC80 regenerate her shields multiple times in a few minutes. Do I read you right? (the ones I kill don't do it that fast.)
v/r
feld
#20
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Posted 06 January 2010 - 02:59 PM
Thankyou Feld, You're essentially correct.
Its possible that the lag on my computer somewhat disrupted my sense of time and that the regeneration is nowhere near as fast as I thought, and maybe I could have closed the range more. Nevertheless it still seems abit odd the punishment she soaked up- it was the sheer number of ships I had against her that somewhat amazed me...
I'll try again and see- this may simply be the after effects of when I first saw how tough ships were in this game.
Its possible that the lag on my computer somewhat disrupted my sense of time and that the regeneration is nowhere near as fast as I thought, and maybe I could have closed the range more. Nevertheless it still seems abit odd the punishment she soaked up- it was the sheer number of ships I had against her that somewhat amazed me...
I'll try again and see- this may simply be the after effects of when I first saw how tough ships were in this game.
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