20 replies to this topic

[muneyoshi]

okay so.. I've noticed a repeated problem with the computer AI on any diffculity (I will admit not to having gone on hard too much as of yet).. 3 issues

1) what is up with the computer setting all ships to "hunt" mode shortly after the battle begins.. this include his bombers and his fighter cover.. which leaves him at a serious disadvantage.. his cap ships are completely open to bombers and my cap ships need NO fighter cover as his bombers are aimlessly flying around the map after the initial opening volleys (he leaves them together for 1 or 2 passes then sets to "hunt") is it possible to disable the computer from useing this feature to force him to keep them in formation? or perhapes make fighter spawns "defend" the cap ship they spawm from? (I do that if I am not altering the fleets position.. enemy fighters/bombers that come near get engaged.. cap ships that get to near find a few extra bombing runs ) It is also annoying since the computer will not retreat if he has alot of fighters roaming the map.. which forces you to try and hunt them down.. he once had enough fighters and bombers roaming the map that he could have wiped my fleet.. but he left them just roaming.. they weren't even engageing the cap ships when they found them.. just make one pass and contuine the roam

2) also he tends to spread out his cap ships too much.. and I notice this even on my own move orders.. the ships seperate a little too much. Is there a way to force the computer to keep his cap ships in formation? hell any formation even a bad one is better then what it does now alot of the time.. I have to alter formations manually.. which I change often depending on what am faceing.. I don't exect to get an AI to do that.. but he needs to atleast keep them together.. having his small ships engaging my entire fleet because the cap ships haven't arrived yet is just plain stupid.. and what is with him moving an ISD right past your fleet so you can rake him???

3) targets.. the comuter picks such stupid targets for his cap ship guns to fire at.. I can cut down the number of guns fireing at me just by having Z-95's attack it.. he wastes alot of fire tryin to hit them.. and they can't do a damn thing to him.. I just saw a Preator fireing at.. 2 corvettes and 2 escort frigates... when it was also being hit by a MC80, 2 Reculsants and (2) elite heavy dreadnaughts.. granted it was also swarmed by 9 X-wings and 9 Y-wings.. (still he never would have lost that ship and won the battle had suggestion number 2 been the way of things).. the Preator had an ISD with him (see end of number 2 for his demise) and between jut those two caps ships my lil fleet was badly outgunned.. he had tons of fighters and smaller carracks that could have easily targeted the x and y-wings.. okay off topic.. his ISD barely engaged.. he fired alot to be sure.. but like his larger brother they picked very poor targets.. why is an ISD even bothering with a corvette when larger more dangerous ships are present? even with it's shields down that corvette can fire at it all day and do next to nothing! Can we script into the game target proities? Cap ships should be targeting other caps first and foremost (even if you can't dictate which ones it targets first. just not some damnable stupid corvette or escort frigate! even rakeing an ISD they can't do squat) Frigates should engage frigates first (exception is the lancer frigate whic was designed to almost solely combat fighters.. these ships should be set to defend larger cap ships).. and corvette classes should engage corvettes.. fighters should target bombers and fighters.. I also slaughter fighters because they are making passes on a cap ship.. that has full shields.. fighters.. not bombers.. how insane is that? The only ship that is still dangerous like that is the skipray as it has a turrented laser.. cap ships should not even bother targeting fighters or bombers (that is after all the entire purpose of a fighter cover or smaller ship protection) unless it has lasers (Rescusant.. God I love those ships.. cap ship with 102 laser turrents.. can't do much to other cap ships but bye bye fighters and bombers).. or no larger ships are within range

Since alot of this is with the AI.. and I had similiar issues with FoC in general (the fighter thing is alot worse now.. and the cap ships spread out more but not the targeting.. it's always been like that) I'm not sure if it can be "fixed".. but the AI is limited to which ships it can build on the diffcuilties as well as other things.. and this seems to be a general issue with it.. not only would it make the battles ALOT more interesting and diffcult.. it would make it alot more realistic (what admiral would really do any of these things? and targeting like I basically described has been a naval standard for hundreds of years as well as being common sense)

Edited by muneyoshi, 05 January 2008 - 04:07 PM.

[Zarkis]

A possible fix for your first point:

Fighters roaming all over the map is usually a consequence of the scout function and not the hunt ability. Do a test: open ...\data\xml\ai\goalfunction\BasicOffensiveSpaceSet.xml. Do the following change and look what happens:

<Space_Scout>
<Goal>Space_Scout</Goal>
<Function>Zero</Function>
</Space_Scout>

Do that only if you don't want to play multiplayer or make a seperate install for testing! The AI should no longer waste his units flying all over the map. I never understood what scouting does for the AI anyway.

The other stuff is more complicated. I have yet to understand, how the AI chooses its targets.

[muneyoshi]

A possible fix for your first point:

Fighters roaming all over the map is usually a consequence of the scout function and not the hunt ability. Do a test: open ...\data\xml\ai\goalfunction\BasicOffensiveSpaceSet.xml. Do the following change and look what happens:

<Space_Scout>
<Goal>Space_Scout</Goal>
<Function>Zero</Function>
</Space_Scout>

Do that only if you don't want to play multiplayer or make a seperate install for testing! The AI should no longer waste his units flying all over the map. I never understood what scouting does for the AI anyway.

The other stuff is more complicated. I have yet to understand, how the AI chooses its targets.

currently his target decisions seem to be based on takeing out the smallest units first.. I think it has just ONE AI targeting overall instead of different ones for each "type" of craft.. this has always been an issue wth EaW.. more thought should have gone into that

[muneyoshi]

tried to find that file.. can't... not in that folder.. foudn a file with a similar name "Offensive Spce Equations" .. but it looks completely different from what you suggest

</Area_Needs_Sweeping>

<!-- Desire to uncover the fog of war in a zone depends on:
Not being pinned to the base
AND
Scout near the base if we haven't seen it in a while or it's early game
Scout away from the base and the enemy base if we haven't seen it in a while or it's early to mid game
Scout near the enemy base or start location if it's a campaign game or it's not early game or it hasn't been seen in a while

-->
<Space_Area_Needs_Scouting>
(1 - Function_Should_Burn_Units_Space.Evaluate)
*
Function_Allowed_As_Defender_Space.Evaluate
*
(
15 * (2000 > Function_Distance_To_Nearest_Friendly_Starbase.Evaluate)
* (((Variable_Target.TimeLastSeenUnnormalized > 120) + (20 > Game.Age)) > 0)
+
10 * (Function_Distance_To_Nearest_Friendly_Starbase.Evaluate > 2000)
* (Function_Distance_To_Nearest_Enemy_Starbase.Evaluate > 2000)
* (((Variable_Target.TimeLastSeenUnnormalized > 200) + (200 > Game.Age)) > 0)
* Variable_Target.TimeLastSeen
+
5 * (Variable_Target.IsEnemyStartLocation + (2000 > Function_Distance_To_Nearest_Enemy_Starbase.Evaluate))
* (((Variable_Target.TimeLastSeenUnnormalized > 400) + (Game.Age > 400) + (Game.IsCampaignGame)) > 0)
* Variable_Target.TimeLastSeen
)
</Space_Area_Needs_Scouting>

<Space_Area_Is_Friendly>
(1.0 - 3.0 * Variable_Target.EnemyForce) *
(1.0 + Variable_Target.FriendlyForce)
</Space_Area_Is_Friendly>

I have no idea what any of that means lol

[Phoenix Rising]

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, EaW probably needs an entirely new AI built from scratch, but since that's exceedingly hard to mod in without any documentation, we'll have to settle for tweaking it.

his ISD barely engaged..

This is a specific problem I have that has nothing to do with the AI. Maybe someone knows how to fix it.

Because starship weapons in PR have multiple firing ranges, I have to make a choice between two bad scenarios. In one, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the shortest guns (plus half of the keel length) and ships will move into that range to attack when you right-click on an enemy. However, it overrides the <Fire_Range_Distance> on all of their hardpoints and their longer-range guns get shortened. In the other scenario, how I have it now, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the longest guns (plus half the keel length) and all guns operate on proper ranges, but ships do not automatically move into the range of their shorter guns to fire like they should. Has anyone else run into this?

Fighters roaming all over the map is usually a consequence of the scout function and not the hunt ability.

Thanks, I'll turn that off for the next version. It's been annoying me for some time, but I never bothered to look it up. Pretty stupid when you have no FoW.

[Phoenix Rising]

Uhh. If you have an XML or Scripts folder in Empire at War Forces of Corruption\Data, delete it.

[muneyoshi]

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, EaW probably needs an entirely new AI built from scratch, but since that's exceedingly hard to mod in without any documentation, we'll have to settle for tweaking it.

his ISD barely engaged..

This is a specific problem I have that has nothing to do with the AI. Maybe someone knows how to fix it.

Because starship weapons in PR have multiple firing ranges, I have to make a choice between two bad scenarios. In one, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the shortest guns (plus half of the keel length) and ships will move into that range to attack when you right-click on an enemy. However, it overrides the <Fire_Range_Distance> on all of their hardpoints and their longer-range guns get shortened. In the other scenario, how I have it now, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the longest guns (plus half the keel length) and all guns operate on proper ranges, but ships do not automatically move into the range of their shorter guns to fire like they should. Has anyone else run into this?

Fighters roaming all over the map is usually a consequence of the scout function and not the hunt ability.

Thanks, I'll turn that off for the next version. It's been annoying me for some time, but I never bothered to look it up. Pretty stupid when you have no FoW.

two thigns.. first.. the cmputer actually held a formation for awhile this time.. with carracks.. dunno why he did this time

second.. what I meant by barely engageing.. not that he stayed back at max range firing his big guns.. he pretty much flew THROUGH my fleet fireing here or there at corvettes and fighters.. he didn't engage my cap ships.. he flew past them allowing them to rake him until he died

third.. comp seems to LOVE builfing carracks.. tie targeters and skiprays.. almost nothing else.. I do note he builds praetors.. but no other cap ship class.. and not very often (thank God)

[Phoenix Rising]

second.. what I meant by barely engageing.. not that he stayed back at max range firing his big guns..

It's still a problem nevertheless. You'll see if now that you know what to look for. The longer the range, the worse it is.

[Zarkis]

at least u get ai. for some reason both on galactic and tactical the enemy seems to do nothing for me.
i just played gc outerrim for 132 turns to test it and i wasnt attacked once, nor did the enemy even take a planet. come tactical they will only fire when i approach them. most of the time the ties just float above the stardestroyers.
any idea whats causing this?

I would do a reinstall and make shure you apply the latest patch!

second.. what I meant by barely engageing.. not that he stayed back at max range firing his big guns..

It's still a problem nevertheless. You'll see if now that you know what to look for. The longer the range, the worse it is.

I know what you mean. I had it once that a ISD was detroyed by a level one space station, because it stopped at long range only firing some of it guns while the stations hit it with torpedoes. In another case a frigate stopped at maximum fire range, but didn't shoot. Maybe half the keel length is not enough.

Edited by Zarkis, 06 January 2008 - 09:39 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Maybe half the keel length is not enough.

Well, it should be, if you assume the radius starts at the center. The main problem is that vanilla never had to deal with this, since all their hardpoints were generally the same range. I'm hoping I can fix it by using strafe distance or one of those tags, or modifying something in the scripts.

[muneyoshi]

second.. what I meant by barely engageing.. not that he stayed back at max range firing his big guns..

It's still a problem nevertheless. You'll see if now that you know what to look for. The longer the range, the worse it is.

oh I have seen that lol.. it does need a fix.. but it wouldn't have been so.. stupid.. if he had been actually firing as he flew.. atlest at long range he can hit me.. can't do squat getting yourself raked

[muneyoshi]

at least u get ai. for some reason both on galactic and tactical the enemy seems to do nothing for me.
i just played gc outerrim for 132 turns to test it and i wasnt attacked once, nor did the enemy even take a planet. come tactical they will only fire when i approach them. most of the time the ties just float above the stardestroyers.
any idea whats causing this?

I would do a reinstall and make shure you apply the latest patch!

second.. what I meant by barely engageing.. not that he stayed back at max range firing his big guns..

It's still a problem nevertheless. You'll see if now that you know what to look for. The longer the range, the worse it is.

I know what you mean. I had it once that a ISD was detroyed by a level one space station, because it stopped at long range only firing some of it guns while the stations hit it with torpedoes. In another case a frigate stopped at maximum fire range, but didn't shoot. Maybe half the keel length is not enough.

though this is bad.. I work around (and this has been mentioned) by ordering te ships to close with the ships/stations you are attacking (personally I love point blank range lol)

[Phoenix Rising]

That works for players (somewhat), but not the AI.

[anakinskysolo]

I just can't get the scouting quick fix working, because I don't have that file. Any other way?

[Phoenix Rising]

Here's the file from the source. You'll have to change it yourself, but it's not hard.

Attached Files

•  BasicOffensiveSpaceSet.zip   1.03KB   116 downloads

[Dalmp]

the cmputer actually held a formation for awhile this time.. with carracks.. dunno why he did this time

I suspect the 'few ships at a time' problem is just a very generic problem I've seen in many many mods. With big ships and claustrophobic maps, you run into all sorts of pathing issues. Sure, a group of carracks can band up and thread their way through the dense screen of asteroids and nebulae, but bigger ships have difficulties. During one battle, I watched an ISD come near to attacking me, bump into a Victory, and then spend a few minutes spinning around trying to figure out how to bypass the nebulae and asteroids all over the map, while I slaughtered the Vic. Large ships work better with open maps.

what I meant by barely engageing.. not that he stayed back at max range firing his big guns.. he pretty much flew THROUGH my fleet fireing here or there at corvettes and fighters.. he didn't engage my cap ships.. he flew past them allowing them to rake him until he die

I know exactly what you mean. Instead of simply pulling into range and starting to fire, they instead behave as if they were fighters, doing strafing runs on my fleet. They fly past while shooting their weapons, then try to turn around, and strafe again on the way back. This behavior is very weird, and to my recollection not common to the stock FoC game or other mods.

EDIT: It occurs to me that I do see this behavior in the stock game, from ships that have lost their shields. They tend to rotate their damaged ships to the back of their lines, to regen shields and prepare for another assault. Possibly the AI capital ships are deciding they are critically damaged long before they actually are? Whatever it is, it seems to be more noticeable with the big ships - the cruisers and frigates don't seem to make these crazy strafing runs - at least they don't turn and run away until their shields are down.

Edited by Dalmp, 20 January 2008 - 10:31 AM.

[Phoenix Rising]

Possibly the AI capital ships are deciding they are critically damaged long before they actually are?

It could be with the lack of hardpoint health. I'm not sure. I just polished up targeting priorities last night, so maybe that will make a difference.

[Davis 65]

Thanks for the feedback. Unfortunately, EaW probably needs an entirely new AI built from scratch, but since that's exceedingly hard to mod in without any documentation, we'll have to settle for tweaking it.

Because starship weapons in PR have multiple firing ranges, I have to make a choice between two bad scenarios. In one, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the shortest guns (plus half of the keel length) and ships will move into that range to attack when you right-click on an enemy. However, it overrides the <Fire_Range_Distance> on all of their hardpoints and their longer-range guns get shortened. In the other scenario, how I have it now, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the longest guns (plus half the keel length) and all guns operate on proper ranges, but ships do not automatically move into the range of their shorter guns to fire like they should. Has anyone else run into this?

i've had the same exact problem.... the Recusant will stay way away from my ships and just fire its two front batterys same with the ISD

[slornie]

Because starship weapons in PR have multiple firing ranges, I have to make a choice between two bad scenarios. In one, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the shortest guns (plus half of the keel length) and ships will move into that range to attack when you right-click on an enemy. However, it overrides the <Fire_Range_Distance> on all of their hardpoints and their longer-range guns get shortened. In the other scenario, how I have it now, I set <Targeting_Max_Attack_Distance> to the range of the longest guns (plus half the keel length) and all guns operate on proper ranges, but ships do not automatically move into the range of their shorter guns to fire like they should. Has anyone else run into this?

What happens if you dont set the max distance? Shouldnt it then just leave the individual hardpoints to fire to their own ranges? Or is EAW not that clever