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Balance Thread 1.05.06


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#1 Devon

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 07:55 PM

This is where all balance suggestions/complaints/whatever should be posted. When Rob gets a chance to look at them, he'll either put a + or - in the ( ) at the end of the suggestion in the first post to say yay or nay to the suggestion :p


General


I have a fairly big balance suggestion to post. But first, a little backround information In bfme1, the balance of units was fairly complicated, but it got pretty much broken down into: Swords > archers + pikes Archers > cavalry Pikes > cavalry Cavalry > swords. In bfme2, it got simplified to soldier>pikes>cav>archers>soldiers. RJ pretty follows the bfme2 version. I'm proposing that we combine them. I hope this will address a number of balance issues.

So, starting with soldiers. Not much changed here, but they get trampled a lot easier than now, back like bfme1. They still take decent damage from archers, but if they get into melee range, archers should fall in 1-2 swings.

Archers have much increased damage against cav, but are also easy to trample. They should take out cav at about the same amount of shots or slightly higher as pikes.

Pikes, not much changed here either, still cav killers. However, they should be a little easier to trample than currently, maybe increase crush revenge too? ()

And cav. Basically, more vulnerable to archers now, less so to pikes (1 horde shouldn't make you run away with 5 hordes of cav as it does now). Better trample, but one horde shouldnt charge through 4 consecutive hordes of guys, it should stop after one. They should be like bfme1, elite but counterable with equal or slightly greater numbers. So it will eventually look like

Soldiers > archers + pikes Archers > soldiers + cav Pikes > cav Cav > soldiers + archers

Also, I think single unit elites (trolls for example) should in general kill soldiers and archers with ease but be weak to archers and pikes.

( )


All heroes should be knocked back by trolls and siege ( )


All hero AoE damage should be removed except for Mordor WitchKing and Trolls. ( )


Walls are too weak, only attackable by siege ( )


Hero Hordes are OP (known, still figuring out what to do)


Pikemen are too strong against structures, more noticable when you face the Ai who tend to go straight for your farms and a horde of pikemen can pretty much destroy them easily. ( )


Walls and towers are definatly too weak. Is it possible to allow all walls/towers to get x2 hitpoints following purchasing of the Numenor Stoneworks and the other upgrades available. ( )



Gondor





Rohan





Elves


Elf armor seems to be insanely weak. I had a FU army of archers and pikes that got owned by one arrow volley (the power, not rangers) ( )



Dwarves





Arnor



Regarding their elite cavalry:
-Make Arnor knights require the Elven and Dunedain minifac upgrades before their purchase is available ()
-Make it so they stop trampling sooner (they can run through whole armies) ()
-Slow them down a bit ()

Regarding their minifactions:
-Perhaps decrease their cost? -IE 500 for dunedain and 750 for elves? ()
-Make Rivendell Cavalry only require a lvl1 rax for production
-Give the Elven Archers (marchwardens i think) a small range buff (and give them bombard too ) ()
-Buff the Rivendell Swordmasters and increase their price to 250-350 depending on how much u buff them ()

-Perhaps u could make dunedain unique from other factions' rangers and the marchwardens by giving them a weapons toggle? I would say spear but that could lead to trouble... ()

Regarding the Hobbits:
-When u add their cavalry could u make them require a lvl2 hobbit house? ()
-Decrease the cost of hobbit pikes to around 150 ()



Mordor





Isengard





Goblins





Men of the East



MotE Rhun archers also are op with their knockback. Maybe passive starting at lvl 2 or 3? ( )



Angmar


Wights are very op

Edited by YodaWarrior, 01 February 2008 - 01:29 PM.

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#2 dojob

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:09 PM

Arnor:

Regarding their elite cavalry:
-Make Arnor knights require the Elven and Dunedain minifac upgrades before their purchase is available ()
-Make it so they stop trampling sooner (they can run through whole armies) ()
-Slow them down a bit ()

Regarding their minifactions:
-Perhaps decrease their cost? -IE 500 for dunedain and 750 for elves? ;) ()
-Make Rivendell Cavalry only require a lvl1 rax for production
-Give the Elven Archers (marchwardens i think) a small range buff (and give them bombard too :p ) ()
-Buff the Rivendell Swordmasters and increase their price to 250-350 depending on how much u buff them ()

-Perhaps u could make dunedain unique from other factions' rangers and the marchwardens by giving them a weapons toggle? I would say spear but that could lead to trouble... ()

Regarding the Hobbits:
-When u add their cavalry could u make them require a lvl2 hobbit house? ()
-Decrease the cost of hobbit pikes to around 150 ()
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#3 Devon

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:17 PM

added it, and thanks for doing ( ) for me :p

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#4 dojob

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:18 PM

No problem :p
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#5 Allathar

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 08:59 PM

I have a problem with the balance system YW suggested. In BfME1 it was like that, too, and it overpowered archers too much, resulting in massing of archer/pike combo's. I'd say we keep it the way it is. They didn't change the system in BfME2 just because they felt like to, but because the BfME1 system was unbalanced.

General:
- walls are too weak, I'd say make all walls only be attackable by siege weapons.
- hero-hordes OP
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#6 Devon

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 10:44 PM

Bfme1 was more balanced than bfme2 was, imo, and bfme2 had the same problem anyway. You would get pikes up front as meat shields and archers behind to shoot people. If they brought soldiers to kill pikes, archers shot them. If they brought cav to trample archers, pikes killed them. No, this is better. Also, archers won't be trample proof like bfme1, just able to actually damage cav.

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#7 Gothmog14

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 12:40 AM

BFME was defiantly more balanced than BFMEII, but I'm not so sure it had anything to do with the advantage system. Archers still dominate the game. IMO, there's no need to make them damage Calvary (nor does it make sense, since they're moving faster they should be harder to hit). IMO, calvary > archers, and archers > pikes instead of calvary. Soldiers can't do anything because they're already dead when they reach the archers (unless you give them high Pierce armor, which would be weird).

- Trolls too weak versus Pikes ( )
- Ents too weak versus pikes ( )
- Nazgûl too strong for their cost ( )

Get rid of hero hordes altogether. Best idea. They're all ugly + knockoffs of other things anyway.

That being said, this mod is surprisingly balanced considering Rob hasn't even finished adding everything yet. Other than MOTW, Rohan, and Arnor (which is close) everything is pretty even IMO.

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#8 robnkarla

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 04:00 AM

One thing I've thought about in overall balance and archers - so many of the units have shields and most are sub-objects. I think this was due to the idea that at some point they would be able to be purchased instead of getting them for free.

What does everyone thing about shields as an upgrade - not just horse shields. This upgrade is meant to prevent the unit from being strung through by an arrow. Thus there will be more 2 tiered armor upgrades and might be able to be the best of both worlds.

Just wondered what everyone thought.

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#9 Allathar

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:55 AM

Could be, but that leaves the problem of archers killing everything early-game, since you'll unlikely start of recruiting cavalry. Except if the shield-upgrade doesn't need to be researched but can be immediately upgraded by hordes, or if the upgrade is researched the units automatically get it... Now I think about it, that's the best solution. But then, it should be cavalry > archers instead of archers > cav.
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#10 Shikari

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 11:01 AM

Maybe keep archers > cav, but reduce their accuracy against cavalry units? Then cavalry obviously own archers up close, as they do atm.

I like allathar's idea of making the shield 1 permanent upgrade instead of making it separate for each.

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#11 Black Dragon

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 02:22 PM

Pikemen are too strong against structures, more noticable when you face the Ai who tend to go straight for your farms and a horde of pikemen can pretty much destroy them easily.

Walls and towers are definatly too weak. Is it possible to allow all walls/towers to get x2 hitpoints following purchasing of the Numenor Stoneworks and the other upgrades available.

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#12 Devon

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 03:49 PM

On the subject of archers, as I said, soldiers will now be able to stand up to them and take them down in 1-2 hits. Soldiers and cav will be able to counter archers if they get close, and one horde will definatly not be able to take out 2 soldier hordes even at a distance.

Adding yours Black Dragon

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#13 Thorongil45

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:58 PM

shields sound good as upgrades but as Allathar said, it should be available early game in some way.
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#14 Devon

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 01:27 PM

Wights are very op


MotE Rhun archers also are op with their knockback. Maybe passive starting at lvl 2 or 3?

Elf armor seems to be insanely weak. I had a FU army of archers and pikes that got owned by one arrow volley (the power, not rangers)

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#15 CIL

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 07:09 AM

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#16 myster

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Posted 18 March 2008 - 11:56 AM

On the subject of archers, as I said, soldiers will now be able to stand up to them and take them down in 1-2 hits. Soldiers and cav will be able to counter archers if they get close, and one horde will definatly not be able to take out 2 soldier hordes even at a distance.

Adding yours Black Dragon


most likely your soldiers will already be killed Before they get to the archers.. likely to need double the size of horde then the archers to actually get to them.. then you still need to kill them.

#17 dojob

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 03:46 PM

Here's a post of mine from the Gondor topic that I think would fit in here:

Archers should be general support units that are good vs everything. I know this would mess up the R-P-S counter system but it would be more realistic, and you could counter them by upgrading units with shields, which would make arrows do a lot less damage to those units.

Here's what I want when it comes to units and countering:

Archers should be general support units good vs everything but weak against armored targets and vulnerable to being run down (perhaps they could get a minimum range...)

Pikes should beat swordsmen imo, but be more expensive in general; they should be defensive/meatshield units and be more vulnerable to flank attacks (so 4 orc hordes will lose vs a horde of uruk pikemen if they only attack from the pikes' front but win if at least one of the orc hordes attacks from the sides/back, unless they're in circle formation). Pikes should still be a hard counter to cavalry though.

Swordsmen should be general melee/bulk units that (depending on the quality of the unit) are either mediocre vs everything but highly spammable, ok vs everything and medium costs, or strong vs everything and very expensive.

Cavalry should be like they are now; strong vs siege and archers and very good for harassing, raiding, and (for most cavalry units) trampling. Although they should beat swordsmen by trampling them, they should lose if they sit there and fight in melee combat, since the swordsmen could just cut down the horses and then the riders easily fall afterwards.

Catapults and balistas should be stronger vs everything but with slightly (by a few more seconds) longer reload time and less accuracy and ofc low armor, since you could either destroy the catapult or kill the people who are using it.


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#18 Dalf32

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 04:01 PM

i dunno, maybe im jsut afraid of change, but the idea of doing away with the rock-paper-scissors system is unnerving. its really been a staple of the series; imo it should stay the way it is in the name of fun and playability rather than realism.

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#19 Dalmp

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 05:15 PM

Rock paper scissors is fine. But it can go overboard.

RotWK R-P-S really blows chunks. It took the concept too far, turning it into insta-kill relationships. As a result we'd see things like:
A unit of ~10 hillmen spears ripping 6 nazgul to shreds. (Oi! Jim-Bob done bagged 'im a Nazgul!)
Cavalry standing around doing nothing while pikes ripped down their farms - waiting for the right unit to get on the scene. :p
1 unit of cavalry destroying 6 units of archers and swords, without losing a single man.

That kind of thing is where a line should be drawn. It's good to have units be more effective vs other units. But when they are 'automatic' wins it actually lessens the tactical experience. Because now instead of having to weigh the risk and effectiveness of a unit in your mind, there's cut and dried automatic answers that no one has to think about. And the game becomes more about what units you produce than how you use them.

I like Dojob's suggestion tbh, and also Yoda's ideas elsewhere. I think the more complex balance of BFMEI was far far better than BFMEII's.

As for archers, they don't need to be strong against anything. The ability to focus fire, to select targets at range, and the ability to have all columns of a unit damaging enemies without regard to position is a big advantage as it is. Archers should be a unit used from defense behind other units. They shouldn't be able to stand toe to toe with anything, imo.

Edited by Dalmp, 23 March 2008 - 05:25 PM.

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#20 Shinobi.

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Posted 23 March 2008 - 06:16 PM

I still can't decide if pikes are to get against cavalry. Ok fair enough if you went full on into a pike on a horse you would die, however the rider next to you maybe go in between two meaning they would come out unhurt. Also you cant back charge pikes which you could actually do. So that may be something to consider.

But maybe just for making the game better pikes could either be significantly weaker or do a lot less damage

Other things,


Uruk Hai should be more expensive because they are to strong for a swordsmen unit early game, this should also apply to Gondor swordsman.

Probably around 300 for Gondor soldiers
450 for Uruk Hai
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