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"Push to permit guns on campus". Don't even think about anything else


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#41 Casen

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 03:36 AM

Irrelevant! You are not addressing the issues. You are generalizing because you realize your losing! The answer is not to ban guns from everyone regardless of who it is.

Anyone here who fucking wants to take guns away from responsible people is using the same fucking logic as banning religion for causing violence.

No argument against that.

The answer is find a way to make sure ONLY RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE GET THEM, otherwise it is unfair. No ifs, ands, or buts.

And the government enforcing "responsibility" by taking guns away from people isn't responsibility, it's tyranny.

Ugh what is it worth arguing?! You people have defective liberalism shoved down your throats from birth it's like trying to argue with Religious Fundamentalists.

Edited by Kacen, 19 February 2008 - 03:41 AM.


#42 Banshee

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 04:31 AM

Losing what? This isn't a competition. This is internet. I'm just shoving my opinion here and you haven't convinced me to change it at all.

And there is no fucking logic between banning religion and guns being posted here, at least not from me. You are free to believe on whatever shit you want. But you have to respect others. There is a big difference between an idea and action. Guns makes people take more violent actions, because with guns, people have more power to be violent. I have nothing against religion at all.

The answer is find a way to make sure ONLY RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE GET THEM, otherwise it is unfair. No ifs, ands, or buts.


You'll never find an answer for that. Because, to find an answer for it, you have to suppose that people have behaviour standards, which is not the case. People are different. Everyone is different. This a fact. Everything that disrespects this fact, doesn't work. Democracy, comunism, freedom are beautiful ideas that disrespect that fact and they do not work. You'll never find a perfect freedom, a perfect democracy and a perfect comunism, because people are different and all these ideas are based on equality for people.

And the government enforcing "responsibility" by taking guns away from people isn't responsibility, it's tyranny.


It is not tyranny. It is a way to define priorities. Guns were designed to kill people. Why should we give people guns if they were designed to disobey the rules of the country. It doesn't make sense at all.

When you take the guns from the population, you take their freedom to have guns, but you give them freedom to walk in the streets without the paranoia of being shot by some lunatic randomly. There is no perfect freedom. When you take certain kind of freedom, you are expanding other kinds of freedom. In short, re-defining priorities.

You people have defective liberalism shoved down your throats from birth it's like trying to argue with Religious Fundamentalists.


I'm not a liberal. Actually, you americans misuse the concept of liberalism. You consider communists liberals, however, most of them want a stronger state, which is not to liberate people. It does exactly the opposite. And I'm not communist either (you might have noticed that by now). I prefer capitalism, but I think that the State must interfere to prevent abuses and control basic sectors of the economy. Freedom with responsability. Here we call it center-left wing.

Edited by Banshee, 19 February 2008 - 04:57 AM.

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#43 jnengland77

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 04:53 AM

The answer is find a way to make sure ONLY RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE GET THEM, otherwise it is unfair. No ifs, ands, or buts.

That will help, but won't work. We would need world peace before that would work. Everyone, including responsible people, can be evil if put in the right situation. I doubt school shootings wouldn't happen if they weren't bullies, stress of school work, or any other factors.

#44 Casen

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:53 AM

Irrelevant because if my friends get their guns taken away that would piss me off. They did nothing wrong with them, and will not, I know them. Your all saying that they should get their guns taken away for what a STATISTIC MINORITY of people do. You cannot argue against that.

And truth be told those responsible gun owners will cause more deaths with those gun rights taken away than without them...knowing some of these people they'd have to have the guns pried from their cold dead fingers.

#45 Banshee

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:03 AM

Statistic minority does every kind of crime everywhere. It's a statistic minority that rapes people, it is a statistic minority that kidnaps people, s statistic minority robs people etc...

And then, I am the one who is saying irrelevant things.

Read again what I said, I think it breaks your argument:

It is not tyranny. It is a way to define priorities. Guns were designed to kill people. Why should we give people guns if they were designed to disobey the rules of the country. It doesn't make sense at all.

When you take the guns from the population, you take their freedom to have guns, but you give them freedom to walk in the streets without the paranoia of being shot by some lunatic randomly. There is no perfect freedom. When you take certain kind of freedom, you are expanding other kinds of freedom. In short, re-defining priorities.


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#46 Casen

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:31 AM

Right, lets cut everyone's dicks off at birth to prevent rape, good.

Your point is STILL irrelevant and my point that it is wrong to take guns away from responsible people still stands. You did not break it. It is the same as generalizing and racially stereotyping.Same principle, at least. Nothing can render it nil.

Hey, guess what, STATISTICALLY, BLACK PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIMES THAN WHITE PEOPLE IN THE U.S.A. That is a fact, using your logic how should I deal with it? OH LETS SEND THEM BACK TO AFRICA!

It's generalizing. Nothing more, nothing less. The only reason you are defending your position is because of your own country's laws. You think your laws are superior. And sadly the majority of the world has these problems.

Let me note that Russia has almost five times the murder rate of the U.S.A. and stricter gun laws.

And then theres Switzerland...personally I think we should take Switzerland's approach to gun ownership...regardless...

I really do not care what you do in your own country with gun laws, I don't care, but keep them to yourself. I think we can find a way to curb gun crimes without banning them outright. It's the mentality of the people that is screwed up. We're a tense society.

You did not break my argument at all.

#47 Alias

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 06:46 AM

And then theres Switzerland...personally I think we should take Switzerland's approach to gun ownership...regardless...

Every round has to be accounted for, therefore any "real" murder will be found out pretty damn quick. Guns in Switzerland are not owned by the person, they're owned by the military.

Edited by Alias, 19 February 2008 - 06:47 AM.


#48 Banshee

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 07:09 AM

Right, lets cut everyone's dicks off at birth to prevent rape, good.

Your point is STILL irrelevant and my point that it is wrong to take guns away from responsible people still stands. You did not break it. It is the same as generalizing and racially stereotyping.Same principle, at least. Nothing can render it nil.

Hey, guess what, STATISTICALLY, BLACK PEOPLE COMMIT MORE CRIMES THAN WHITE PEOPLE IN THE U.S.A. That is a fact, using your logic how should I deal with it? OH LETS SEND THEM BACK TO AFRICA!

It's generalizing. Nothing more, nothing less. The only reason you are defending your position is because of your own country's laws. You think your laws are superior. And sadly the majority of the world has these problems.

Let me note that Russia has almost five times the murder rate of the U.S.A. and stricter gun laws.

And then theres Switzerland...personally I think we should take Switzerland's approach to gun ownership...regardless...

I really do not care what you do in your own country with gun laws, I don't care, but keep them to yourself. I think we can find a way to curb gun crimes without banning them outright. It's the mentality of the people that is screwed up. We're a tense society.

You did not break my argument at all.


You missed my logic, specially with this stupid example. Following your stupid example, it violates my logic because black people in america were not designed to kill people.

My logic is simple: we should ban guns because they were designed to kill and gives more power to people to be violent with others. And that is totally relevant to your argument. You fail to see it.

You don't need guns for nothing, except for a military war. You don't need guns to hunt. You can use dards with tranquilizer to stop the enemies. People who hunts for sport usually don't eat their targets. So, why should they kill them. I think police shouldn't use guns either. Instead, they should use weapons to stop other humans from moving, so they can be arrested.
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#49 some_weirdGuy

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 07:50 AM

Anyways; thats the thing about Australians, we can take a joke, even at our own expense unlike some nations. (Those Aiddle Eastern nations, that go around killing people for their religion;, just because someone says something wrong or a woman shows her face...)
butHowever, thats not the point.

Anyways, back on topic.

I think the only people who should have guns are professionals like security guards, police, etc. You don't need to have everyone on campus with a gun just to stop crazy people from killing students, just have security guards who have a gun. I mean, its things like that thats what the police are for. If everyone has a gun, then what good are the police?


anyway, thats the thing about Australians, we can take a joke, even at our own expense, unlike some nations,(like those middle eastern nations, that go around killing people for their religion, just cause someone says something wrong or a woman shows he face...)

but thats not the point

anyway, back on topic
i think the only people who should have guns are professionals like security guards, police, etc.
you dont need to have everyone on campus with a gun just to stop crazy people from killing students, just have security guards who have a gun
i mean, its things like that the police are for, if everyone has a gun, then what good are police?


half the punctuation you had to put in was from you puting it all into sentences, i had them on separate lines,

also, you say i don't have good English, yet you say 'Aiddle Eastern', when i meant exactly what i said when i called them Middle Eastern(yes, i'll admit, easter was a mistake),
Middle Eastern countries... situated in the Middle East ;)
(and if you dont know where that is, thats the place where iraq and iran and those other Middle Eastern countries are...)

and "Anyways"...
its suppose to be Anyway, as Anyways, isn't proper english!

and saying "but thats not the point" is perfectly acceptable english, there's no need to change it to 'however'...
Also "its things like that the police are for" is also acceptable, im saying, that the police are for things like that, just the other way round
and "then what good are police", is also acceptable, why make unnecessary changes to grammar if the grammar is already ok?

so for someone who goes on about my bad english, you sure need to learn a bit :)
(and honestly, i dont get all day on the computer, so if i don't get my posts done, i cant finish them all, so i only check over them once, i dont have all day for double checking and triple checking, and half the time cant be bothered to punctuate all the little bits)
{even though i really should :) }

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now, with the guns, i don't think everyone guns should be taken off them , i didn't think thats what we were arguing

although, i though the rule with any gun was it had to be locked in a cupboard, then its ammunition locked in another cupboard in another room with a different key

but maybe its not like that where you people are from...

anyway, people should be allowed to have guns, if they have a gun license, and have their guns locked away except for when they are using them for hunting, or on shooting ranges or whatever

guns on campus? no thank you...

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#50 Paladin58

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:12 AM

My logic is simple: we should ban guns because they were designed to kill and gives more power to people to be violent with others. And that is totally relevant to your argument. You fail to see it.


Yes, they were designed to kill, but applications have been formulated to use them to do other things than kill people. Like, killing animals! :) See below.

People who hunts for sport usually don't eat their targets.

Take a look at the hunting population of the Midwest United States next time you say that. Yeah, maybe we're fat, but we at least consume animals that we kill. Mmm, deer-burger...

And...

ow, with the guns, i don't think everyone guns should be taken off them , i didn't think thats what we were arguing

although, i though the rule with any gun was it had to be locked in a cupboard, then its ammunition locked in another cupboard in another room with a different key

but maybe its not like that where you people are from...

anyway, people should be allowed to have guns, if they have a gun license, and have their guns locked away except for when they are using them for hunting, or on shooting ranges or whatever


Most of this, I agree with. In America, it works like this: Usually, when the weapon is stored in a place for you to get to (before hunting, during a home invasion, etc.), they'll be in the same room, within the same cabinet, but in different locked compartments with different keys. At least, that's where I'm at. I'm sure that you'd get different variations depending on where folks live. Personally, though, having a gun for self-defense is okay in my opinion (as I've stated) because there are some times where the police can't get to you in time, or random passers-by on the street won't even lift a finger to help in your behalf (that's my reason, for the record). Yeah, there are personal defense weapons like tasers, stun guns and mace, but some folks can withstand even those (I've seen a person be able to walk away from a taser blast).

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#51 some_weirdGuy

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:25 AM

i hear, that even if someone is robbing your place, you aren't allowed to get a weapon from another room to stp them

even something like a baseball bat

thats why you keep a bat in every room :)

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#52 Paladin58

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:35 AM

Sometimes, a bat just isn't enough. I mean, what are you going to do if a hulk of a person just busts through your front door, and starts stealing all your stuff? Hitting people like that will only piss them off. In the time that it could take you to beat him senseless with a bat, he could have beaten you to pulp, and assaulted a significant other.

Edited by Nology5890, 19 February 2008 - 08:48 AM.

OLD SIG
When history witnesses a great change Razgriz reveals itself,
first as a dark demon. As a demon it uses it power to rain death upon the land,
and then it dies. However after a period of slumber Razgriz returns
As the demon sleeps, man turns on man.
Its own blood, and madness soon cover the earth.
From the depths of despair awaken the Razgriz.
Its raven wings ablaze in majestic light.
Amidst the eternal waves of time
From a ripple of change shall the storm rise
Out of the abyss peer the eyes of a demon
Behold the Razgriz, its wings of black sheath
The demon soars through the dark skies
Fear and Death trail its shadow beneath
Until Men united wield a hallowed sabre
In Final Reckoning, the beast is slain.
Razgriz intrerpretation

Posted Image <-This stays up there for you, buddy!

#53 Alias

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 08:46 AM

Sometimes, a bat just isn't enough. I mean, what are you going to do if a hulk of a person just busts through your front door, and starts stealing all your stuff? Hitting people like that will only piss them off.

Capsicum Spray, Tranquillisers...

Edited by Alias, 19 February 2008 - 08:50 AM.


#54 some_weirdGuy

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 09:00 AM

a cannon... :)

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#55 Casen

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 01:58 PM

It's in the constitution; that can't be changed.

Plus, you can use a knife to murder someone knife murders are statistically higher. And you people don't realize in Arizona gun crimes are low and it has the loosest gun laws in the country.

Sadly we haven't been using the second amendment well; if we did we would have stormed the white house and shot Bush already. e_e;

#56 Banshee

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 03:22 PM

My logic is simple: we should ban guns because they were designed to kill and gives more power to people to be violent with others. And that is totally relevant to your argument. You fail to see it.


Yes, they were designed to kill, but applications have been formulated to use them to do other things than kill people. Like, killing animals! :) See below.



Then, restrict guns for hunting areas and do not let them leave these areas. Allowing them in any civil area is a problem, not a solution.


Most of this, I agree with. In America, it works like this: Usually, when the weapon is stored in a place for you to get to (before hunting, during a home invasion, etc.), they'll be in the same room, within the same cabinet, but in different locked compartments with different keys. At least, that's where I'm at. I'm sure that you'd get different variations depending on where folks live. Personally, though, having a gun for self-defense is okay in my opinion (as I've stated) because there are some times where the police can't get to you in time, or random passers-by on the street won't even lift a finger to help in your behalf (that's my reason, for the record). Yeah, there are personal defense weapons like tasers, stun guns and mace, but some folks can withstand even those (I've seen a person be able to walk away from a taser blast).


Most people who react to crimes, specially when armed with a gun, tends to be killed or have much higher chances to be killed. Armed victims become a much higher threat to the bandits, who tends to kill them faster. All statistics here confirms that. Guns do not give you any kind of safety. Bandits are professional and organized, we are a n00bs. It's much safer to let them rob you and call the police later.

Edited by Banshee, 19 February 2008 - 03:26 PM.

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#57 Casen

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:14 PM

What's the use? Other countries apparently teach defective thoughts. Coming from the same people who call themselves liberals yet support homosexual-killing sexist Palestinians. Of course they're fucked in the head. They have bullshit shoved down their throat from the scum cultural propaganda of their own countries.

Not worth it arguing. Not that my country's government hasn't been infested with un-American Muzzie collaborators.

#58 Phil

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Posted 19 February 2008 - 05:28 PM

Poor kid. Apparently nature didn't equip you with what we call sense. Try breaking free of your evil liberal, pro-muslim, israel-hater, anti-pagan, whatever... construct all your thoughts seem to revolve around before you come arguing here. This discussion is not about your concept of the enemy, for once. Just not.

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#59 Banshee

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 01:00 AM

What's the use? Other countries apparently teach defective thoughts. Coming from the same people who call themselves liberals yet support homosexual-killing sexist Palestinians. Of course they're fucked in the head. They have bullshit shoved down their throat from the scum cultural propaganda of their own countries.


Are you sick or anything? Point me a thread where I support any of these things you said on any forum. You won't find it. You really have mental problems if you think something like this about me...

Edited by Banshee, 20 February 2008 - 02:46 AM.

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#60 Ash

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 10:50 AM

I think he was generalising, Banshee.

And I put it to you, Banshee, how will banning guns stop gun crime? It hasn't in the UK. Liverpool is a prime example. A couple people every week get shot in Liverpool, that's before you even look at the rest of the country. And guns are illegal here. The point is, if you make something illegal, you don't make it any less accessible. People who want a gun will find ways and means to get one. Same as marijuana. Same as cocaine. Same as heroin. I presume the situation on that score is not too dissimilar in Brazil, either.

The point is that removing the right to bear arms will solve nothing except remove the individual's ability to defend himself against an assailant. Which therefore makes committing crime easier, such as it is in the UK. The point of being a criminal is that you operate outside the law, therefore it matters little whether guns are legal or not, a criminal will still have access to them, while the general public and, indeed, the majority of the police force, do not. Not that I would trust the police to carry guns any more than I trust the criminals with them.

Indeed, knife crime is higher the world over, because knives are fucking easier to get hold of. In America, that's true as well. What do you suggest? We ban all forms of cutlery too? Just incase when knives are banned people will start murderin' with forks and spoons? Chopsticks, maybe?

I'm not saying that shops should hand out guns willy-nilly to every Tom, Dick and Harry who walks through the door. There should be regulation to try to minimise the likelihood of them falling into hands that would use them for wrongdoing, but that being said, if you're going to use a gun for wrongdoing, chances are you know a means to get a gun.

Case in point...banning guns won't stop gun crime, or even reduce it. In fact, it would likely exacerbate it, especially considering it would only be law-abiding citizens who handed theirs in... :p




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