70 replies to this topic

[Ghostrider]

I have a big bugbear with the current X-wings - and this is not Phoenix's fault - its the vanilla EAW game itself.

As a fan of the books, I have been really disappointed that I can't replicate Wedge and his Xwings for one simple reason.

X-Wing Proton torpedoes don't target enemy fighters.

In my opinion, the X-Wing Proton Torpedo gives a massive boost in a dogfight, and this is their one strength over the empire - multi-role fighters.
In game terms, the (good) suggestion of having Proton torpedos hit hull only on capitals works, but it reduces the poor X-wing to bad bombers, not good multi-role fighters.

In game terms this is a problem. You can't just change the proton torpedo specs as this would ruin the game play.
I also think it would be unfair to just give them Concussion missiles, becuase these skip through shields and are instant death to weak-hulled empire fighters.
It also negates the big development advantage of the A-wing.

However I suggest a compromise.
Create a new projectile - the Proton Missile
It can target fighters and bombers, but it hits shields, not hull. This I think would be a good compromise, and returns the X-wing to It's true canonical role in battle - as per the books and films.

The Proton Missile should only be available to fighter craft, (in the books Y-wings and B-wings dont shoot ties with Protons)
I suggest the X-Wing, E-wing and Tie Defender get the modified Proton Torpedo.

[Casen]

So you want to fix a so called "non-canonical" problem with...a non-canonical solution?

Think about that really hard...

[Dane Kiet]

All he is doing is suggesting that there be two different missles in the code, they can be labled the same in the unit description. Just note the the TARGETING system is different.

[Ghostrider]

Yeah to the last.

I just suggest making the X-wing Proton Torpedoes behave like ... proper proton torpedoes as per the books. Not the EAW ones.

Obviously you have to call the new projectile something!
You also have to balance canonical accuracy with game-play.

Limiting the new projectile to fighters makes sense as they have different targetting systems.

Try it. It makes X-wings tougher in a dogfight compared to the Ties. Like they are supposed to be.

I just think current X-wings only have a role as poor quality bombers with the current weapon load out which is clearly not canonical cos they currently perform badly against TIES. Better shields are outweighed by poor maneuverabilty. With the torpedoes able to target fighters again, it swings the balance back to where it should be. Also having them hit shields first makes them sufficiently different from concussion missiles, which are better again cos they kill even the defenders and avengers in one go.

[Phoenix Rising]

No, it pretty much is my fault; you can easily set the torpedo launchers to target fighters. So why haven't I?

Well, you can debate about whether or not warheads are stopped by the shields or if the hull is the only defense against them and you can get into the various sizes/types of proton torpedo and concussion missile and the role of energy shields and particle shields, but you probably won't get anywhere. Personally, I'm of the opinion that the particle shield rating is rolled into the hull rating and what we really need are two shield ratings, but notwithstanding source code, I can't make that change. So with only two hitpoint meters to work with, the fact of the matter is that the game is simply more interesting if they bypass shields and impact the hull. If I made all projectiles go through the shields before they could touch the hull, bombers would not be very useful and your tactical options would be more limited.

Let's say instead I allow torpedo launchers to target fighters. Does that not make concussion missiles, which do half damage, somewhat obsolete? You could also punch holes in transports with them, and I'm not sure of the implications of that. You'd also have bombers lining up against each other and obliterating everything like you do if you put A-wings head-to-head with TIE Avengers.

Okay, what if I added the proton missile to the mod? Warhead loadouts are somewhat arbitrary for sure (I can't change them dynamically), so I could give them to X-wings if I wanted to. But what would prevent me from giving them to B-wings? Or TIE Defenders? Or Nova Wings? These are the kind of questions I had hoped to avoid by just relegating missiles to anti-fighter duty, while keeping torpedoes limited to anti-capital.

Yes, I could change this proton missile to target shields, but then I'm in sort of a philosophical design bind. If proton torpedoes and proton missiles (and proton bombs, etc.) are essentially the same technology (some kind of nergon-14 reaction... sources disagree on the nature), then why does one bypass shields and one doesn't? I can't answer that question.

[Dane Kiet]

Magic?

[RingofFire]

Proton torpedoes according to all of the X-Wing/Tie fighter series games are too slow and unmaneuverable to hit starfighters. Maybe a lucky shot at close range on a tie bomber, but besides that nothing.

That game series is extremely canonical, and its where the whole RU and SBD rating systems came from(Im assuming thats where you got the values from for hull and shield)


Proton torpedoes are supposed to be anticapital ship weapons, not antifighter weapons. Concussion missiles are antifighter.

And if you are REALLY going for canon, most x-wings arent even supposed to carry proton torpedoes due to the limited resources of the rebels. Each craft only had a single pair on the battle of yavin.

The current X-wings are fine.

[Phoenix Rising]

And if you are REALLY going for canon, most x-wings arent even supposed to carry proton torpedoes due to the limited resources of the rebels. Each craft only had a single pair on the battle of yavin.

That's unnecessary over-factionalization, in my opinion. If you had 100k in the bank (accounting for the factor by which EaW credits differ from canonical prices), I think you could afford some torpedoes if you chose to. By the same logic, you could say the Rebels shouldn't be allowed to hold planets because it's not conductive to guerilla warfare.

[hotshot389]

That really is where Eaw goes wrong, the Rebels should have had that "corruption" abillity insted. Insted just calling it influence, which would give them gurrella warfare benefits. planets like Mon calimari openly rebelled, so they would be owned by the rebels, the rest would be mostly secret bases and influenced planets. But then again, it still wouldn't work to the same effect as the way it was in canon.

[Phoenix Rising]

Well, that's really a whole other debate.

[anakinskysolo]

Proton torpedoes according to all of the X-Wing/Tie fighter series games are too slow and unmaneuverable to hit starfighters. Maybe a lucky shot at close range on a tie bomber, but besides that nothing.

That game series is extremely canonical, and its where the whole RU and SBD rating systems came from(Im assuming thats where you got the values from for hull and shield)

Yeah, but the X-Wing series of novels, which were written by Mike Stackpole and Aaron Allston who, in my opinion, together with James Luceno, are the novel authors who most understand of starship characteristics, state otherwise. And in the Acknoledgments part, Stackpole always thanked Lawrence Holland for the X-Wing and Tie Fighter computer games, so we can actually say that the series were based on the games. And yet, there is some information on proton topredoes and laser cannons in the games that are contradicted by the Essential Guides, specifically the New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology that state that the range of proton torpedoes is much less than the range of laser cannons, while in the games it is the other way around. Anyway, in the X-Wing series of novels, the proton torpedoes are used a lot against starfighters, and also against capital ships, but not just against capital ships.

[Phoenix Rising]

As far as range is concerned, I've seen lasers > warheads and lasers < warheads depending on the source.

[cromy]

As far as range is concerned, I've seen lasers > warheads and lasers < warheads depending on the source.

And in physics warheads > then lasers laser will run out of energy and warheads won't ever run out of momentum until they hit something that is of course so long as warheads are not contained in energy which if i rebel my games right not all are.

[Dalmp]

The operational range of the missile is not limited by it's momentum but by it's ability (and fuel) to correct it's own course to do something other than just drift off. Turbolasers, on the other hand, are certainly not purely light (they are too slow). Still, their operation range is limited more by the targetting ability of the gun than by the theoretical limit of the projectile (if there is even a limit).

So we definitely have to consider canon in this, and canon is vague to say the least.

Personally, I think the movie evidence and the X-wing game evidence outranks Stackpole, much as I respect his writing. In the films torpedoes travel quite slowly, and would not be able to hit a fighter short of extreme luck. They were worried about hitting an effectively stationary two-meter target. Han described the hit as a 'great shot' and 'one in a million'. EaW itself describes that impact as a 'Lucky Shot'. What are the odds the same munition is going to hit a small manueverable target dodging at high speeds?

Pretty much nil, with all due respect to Mr. Stackpole.

Edited by Dalmp, 08 March 2008 - 11:09 AM.

[TheEmpire]

I think the movie evidence and the X-wing game evidence outranks Stackpole

Then there is Battlefront 2 and its space combat was completely not canon. Tie Fighters with proton torpedos that were better then x wing torpedos that is not right. The ships did not even have turbolasers or ion cannons and it had the same 2 ships fighting over and over again. I think that proton torpedos could track fighters but would miss a lot.

[Phoenix Rising]

Well, the fact that laser weapons (oversized blasters - excited plasma) have ranges in the RPGs would seem to imply that their energy dissipates. In one of the Enemy Lines books, they use the commando team as a spotter for a capital ship sitting out-system to fire on a worldship at a distance of 10 lightminutes, I believe, to "demonstrate" the pipefighter's abilities. It did indeed hit, but only caused superficial damage. This is the longest distance that I know of for firing such a weapon.

Wasn't BF2 the one that made the V-wing into a bomber or some such nonsense ?

[TheEmpire]

Wasn't BF2 the one that made the V-wing into a bomber or some such nonsense ?

Yes it also made Tie intercepter in the campain before it was even invented. I don't play the base game anymore I use mods to make it canon. The game was almost completly none canon. I will give it this though it's ground combate was fine.

[Phoenix Rising]

Amazing they don't just give everyone missile boats and tell them to make like Annie in TPM.

Edited by Phoenix Rising, 08 March 2008 - 08:29 PM.

[Pred the Penguin]

Battlefront was.... weird.