35 replies to this topic

[Smokeskin]

No reason to bother testers with stuff we already know...

Playing the SS standard AI was only worth it to see the new units and races. Going multiplayer isn't an option, I can't be bothered with wait times between games, not being able to pause or quit in the middle of a match, and the social side effects of starting to care about my automatch rating.

I'd rather test your perhaps slightly buggy SS Advanced AI than not play SS at all, so it really isn't any bother

[thudo]

hehe.. well I get people coming me to literally plead they get blown apart, ripped in 2, beheaded, impaled, vapourized, and sent to the hellfires that burn so long as they don't get to play the vanilla SS AI. While I won't try to satisfy such "debased needs" I will say it makes us devs feel all the more loved. But I'll leave the DarkEldar to do all the hideous killings because they are so damn cool and the Sisters are massively ghey.

[LarkinVB]

Watched my first game with latest beta.

Quick observation : Great action !

Nitpicking :

Tau commander still doing a double jump to disengage. According to the code he shouldn't - but he did.

Commissar should get a timeout executing his men. As of now he is in execution frenzy as soon as squad reinforces and squadsize exceeds 6.

I placed all caravel as in "basic". Best shot will be to follow thudos advice and place first as "basic" near HQ and rest "safeplace".

Ork did get early big gen with lots of power but still had to follow the build order, delaying his T2 as he was forced to build more generators which were not really needed.

IG were very reluctant to build vehicles at all. Their first vehicle was T3.

Edited by LarkinVB, 18 March 2008 - 03:35 PM.

[thudo]

Ork did get early big gen with lots of power but still had to follow the build order, delaying his T2 as he was forced to build more generators which were not really needed.

Yeaa I'm still a big proponent of making the first 2-3 Gens force-built in the program then the rest dynamic HOWEVER I've been testing with the AI only building the first 2 Gens by the program and the rest dynamic and this has had a VERY favourable outcome because it allows the AI to have more balance req/power early on and this has made their Tier1-2 a little more smoother.

IG were very reluctant to build vehicles at all. Their first vehicle was T3.

Hmm.. I still don't get this part. I wonder what buildprogram and map this was on as I still rarely see this occur. Tier3 for Vehicles? Esshh.. Maybe vehicles are valued a little lower in their unitstats.ai then infantry. This seems to be a reoccuring problem with IG AI -- late vehicles. Weird..

[LarkinVB]

Yeaa I'm still a big proponent of making the first 2-3 Gens force-built in the program then the rest dynamic HOWEVER I've been testing with the AI only building the first 2 Gens by the program and the rest dynamic and this has had a VERY favourable outcome because it allows the AI to have more balance req/power early on and this has made their Tier1-2 a little more smoother.

I think it is worth some testing. At least make a big generator count as a normal generator towards the gen number used in build programs.

[Smokeskin]

Having the big gen count as 1 gen would probably be fine. But building normal gens dynamically based on power income alone is probably a bad idea, big gens are exposed and priority targets for players - there's a big risk you'll find yourself without power if you rely on it because the big gen gets destroyed.

I think that instead of saving on normal generators, the power from a big gen should be used to get more vehicles and less infantry than you would get with a standard req:power ratio, and/or tech a bit more. So in the example mentioned, going tier2 before those extra gens are built would be smart, but don't omit building some extra generators anyway.

Edited by Smokeskin, 18 March 2008 - 04:10 PM.

[thudo]

But the thing is the AI does build Gens when it falls below 200pwr.. thats the dynamic Generator build script we've always had. Larkin is saying and I've been putting in a lot of testing on this is that the AI has, in general, built too many gens in Tier1 when it had more than enough power. I've tested this and yep.. its MUCH easier to force out 2 Gens early game then let the AI decide on how it wants to build em afterwards. I think it worth seeing if the beta team agrees "in the real world" outside our simulated walls. We should try it at least once in a build and gauge the impressions. If its a dud, then its easy to go back.

[LarkinVB]

Had three IG AI with fixed build program 1 and they did build vehicles faster this time. Perhaps one of the other build programs is broken regarding vehicles ?

Don't want to sound negative. The battles I watched were fantastic. It was enjoying necron builders helping to build chaos turrets in the chaos base.

Edited by LarkinVB, 18 March 2008 - 04:32 PM.

[thudo]

Had three IG AI with fixed build program 1 and they did build vehicles faster this time. Perhaps one of the other build programs is broken regarding vehicles ?

Thats beyond possible..

[Smokeskin]

But the thing is the AI does build Gens when it falls below 200pwr.. thats the dynamic Generator build script we've always had.

What does that mean exactly? That it regularly does something like this?

if (power<200 and !generatorUnderConstruction) then buildGenerator

And that's the only thing that decides when generators are built? To me, that sounds like it will really be the code that decides what to build/research that decides when generators are built - everytime it builds something that reduces power below 200, you get another generator. If that other part of the AI doesn't consider this, then it sounds like it could very well inadvertently trigger generator construction too often.

[thudo]

I would agree with you if I haven't tested it, oh, 50+ times in numerous scenarios. It works well having most generators built dynamically because req is SUPER IMPORTANT in early game map dominance while Power is starting to be important in mid-Tier2. Dynamic Gen building helps to balance these needs and thats why it is VERY attractive. Its worth testing it with the beta team.

[ArkhanTheBlack]

Can we agree on 3 gens built by the build programs and the rest dynamic? Further, usually the third gen is built after tier2 advance started. (I think Eldar are an exception and need three gens to build the soul shrine...)
The tier 2 gen check will build new gens if power < 500. That value seems okay for me to force them to build enough gens for vehicle spam.

[thudo]

Sold!

Its a build test anyway.. if we find the testing team is NOT getting the AI they were expecting AND its culprit is the lack of power due to the slow Gen production in early game, we'll slowly bring more in on the force builds.

[Smokeskin]

If the dynamic script you have works, then it works. Test results > clever thinking

In tier1 you mostly just need power for teching, so having it as part of your build order sounds sensible.

[Zenoth]

Sold!

Its a build test anyway.. if we find the testing team is NOT getting the AI they were expecting AND its culprit is the lack of power due to the slow Gen production in early game, we'll slowly bring more in on the force builds.

As long as it doesn't affect the Necron's production efficiency it should be ok, because they obviously need as much Power as they can get in Tier 1 (without sacrificing offensive units of course), and to a certain extent the Eldars also need lots of Power (compared to other races), especially in Tier 2, those Wraithlords are draining so much of it.

[thudo]

Necrons are honestly unique here since they need all that power always to own your ass back so badly down the firepit.