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Thinking of Starting a LOTR mod?

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#1 mike_


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Posted 24 March 2008 - 06:54 PM

Maybe these can help. I've gotten bored as of late, and have decided to catalogue any and all resources that I can find that I think would be useful to the LOTR modding community. They'll range from topics such as weapons descriptions and how to properly translate Tolkein's languages.
Magic in Middle-Earth
Warfare in Middle-Earth
Weapons in Middle-Earth
An Overview of Arms and Armour in Middle-Earth
Languages in Middle-Earth
Lord of the Rings Book Quotes
A More Tolkein Gondor
----- An Analysis of Minas Tirith's Military Structure
----- Knights of Dol Amroth
A More Tolkein Arnor
----- Arnorian Cavalry
A More Tolkein Harad
The War of Arnor and Angmar
The Thain's Book - A Tolkein Encyclopedia
An Analysis of Elven Gear of War
The Encyclopedia of Arda
Vampires in Middle-Earth
Of the Voice of Saruman
Of the Powers of Gandalf
Troop Strengths at the Battle of the Pellenor Fields
Smaug the Magnificent (click here for best pictures)
Difference Between a Spear and a Pike
I'll update this whenever I manage to find new content.
If you find something that you think would serve useful, feel free to PM it to me with the URL and your own, short description.

Edited by mike_, 17 June 2008 - 03:27 PM.

#2 Nertea


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Posted 25 March 2008 - 05:03 AM

I can't believe that someone managed to make those horrid GW arnor models look good.

I really don't do requests and my Arnor Soldier is not fit for BFME. Don't ask me for either.

#3 mike_


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Posted 22 April 2008 - 11:28 PM

Well...does anyone have anything to add to this? I'm sure there's content somehwere on the 'Net :xd:

#4 Thorin

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 09:47 PM

I made some estimates on Gondor's and Rohan's numbers a while back. Aswell as Mordor's presence on the Fields of Pelennor.

The easiest, of course, is Rohan.

As we already know, an Eored is 1/100th of the full army of Rohan, and seemingly every soldier of Rohan has the ability to be mounted. An Eored is 120 cavalry. Further still, we have Knights of the King's Household, which we shall assume to be of equal size to an Eored, if not slightly larger.
There are other considerations. We could make an estimation of the total population of Rohan based on it's known fighting force, however, we'd also have to take in the reasonable possibility that not every man of fighting age (20 - 50) is part of the enlisted, professional army. It is of course possible that, even if not all men of fighting age are part of the professional fighting force, they would be trained and be conscripted in need. For the purposes of this analysis I will assume that all men of fighting age are in the professional army, and that all other tasks that would normally take place in a medieval society are undertakes by those too young, old, or whom are women. Simply, a multiplication factor of the professional fighting force by 5 will give the entire population of Rohan.

Rohan Military
12,000 Rohan Cavalry
200 Knights of the King's Household
12,200 overall

As an aside, we can give Rohan 20,000 further men who are too young or old for the fighting force, and 30,000 women.
Rohan's total population: 60,000

And now, on to Gondor.
There are few concrete numbers on the overall population of Gondor, but some can be inferred.

At the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, there came 3000 men from Gondor's fiefdoms. I shall, however, start off with Minas Tirith.
There were a minimum of 3 companies of the Guard of the Citadel. A company is used rather randomly in Tolkien's works, but estimates would place it around 100 - 500. For this purpose I shall use 250 as a company of any army. I will also assume that there are just the 3 companies, giving 750 Guards of the Citadel. Strangely, there were very few solid references to a standing garrison, or fighting force, inherant to Minas Tirith. However, as Faramir, when leaving Minas Tirith as per Denethor's, he was said to take men of the city, and as an assumption, I'll assume this was part of the standing army and not those of the Guards of the Citadel. There is little basis for a number of the generic soldiers of Minas Tirith, but judging by it's size, and the knowledge it was one of the most populus areas of Gondor, I'll make the standard 'militia' (similar to modern day reserves, as opposed to the Citadel Guard/regulars) 4000 strong. Further still there was some cavalry in the city, but it was clearly few in number, as horsemen were rarely seen except those of the messengers of Denethor. I'll put in an arbitrary number of 500 cavalry in the city - including the messengers, whatever cavalry may have come in from Cair Andros/Ithilien, and any other random horses.

Now that Minas Tirith is out of the way, I'll start moving further afield. In Osgiliath, presumably, there was a garrison that was size enough to hold off Mordor for some time. Rather arbitrarily, I'll put this at 1000 in strength (it's worth noting that any cavalry in Osgiliath I have previously accounted for as a part of Minas Tirith's cavalary just working away from home). At Ithilien there was at least a company per Frodo's wording, but I doubt there was much more. At Cair Andros, which, like Osgiliath, was manned with a garrison, there must have been enough to hold back a fair strength of Mordor. I will give Ithilien and Cair Andros 250 and 500 men respectively.

At Lossernach there came 200 men, but 2000 were expected. While this may be an exageration, this is the only figure that we have any sort of idea over, so I'll use 2000 as what they did actually expect. Presumably they didn't expect Lossernach's entire fighting force, and as Lossernach was one of the three most explicitly mentioned places as the most populus areas in Gondor, I will give Lossernach a fighting force of 3000.
Considerable strength was left behind - indeed at Lossernach only a small fraction of their full fighting force was sent, suggesting that at the other places were in a similar situation, and sent definitely no more than half of their capacity.

Ringlo Vale: 300 men to Minas Tirith; total of 1000 fighting force
Morthond: 500 men to Minas Tirith; total of 1000 fighting force
Anfalas and Langstrand: long line to Minas Tirith; total of 750 fighting force
Lamedon: a few hillmen; total of 2000 fighting force
Fisher-folk of the Ethir: at least 100; total of 1000 fighting fighting force
Pinnath Gelin: 300; total of 1000 fighting force
Dol Amroth: 700 Infantry, 250 Swan Knights; total of 4000 fighting force

Further still there is Pelargir, which I will imagine, as along with Belfalas and Ethir had the intention of bearing the full brunt of the Corsairs, would have left most men behind (or sent, as in Pelargir's case, none at all, unless those are included as the men of Ethir). For Pelargir I will assign 1000 Men.

Later in the battle of the Pelennor fields, of those that came on the ships or walked up the riverside, I will give numbers of 4000 and 4000 respectively, shared out cumulatively between the total population of 12,000 of Lossernach, Lamedon, Pelargir, Ethir, and Dol Amroth.

Elsewhere there will be some 'other' men, but we'll just assume they're so few that they're taken up in the numbers of places like Anfalas, Ringlo Vale etc.

Gondor's Military
750 Guards of the Citadel of Minas Tirith
4000 Infantry of Minas Tirith
500 Cavalry of Eastern Gondor

4000 Dol Amroth Infantry
250 Dol Amroth Cavalry (Swan Knights)

3000 Lossernach Infantry
2000 Lamedon Infantry
2000 Ethir + Pelargir Infantry
1000 Ringlo Vale Infantry
1000 Morthond Archers
750 Anfalas + Langstrand Infantry
1000 Pinnath Gelin Infantry
1000 Osgiliath Garrison
250 Ithilien Rangers
500 Cair Andros Garrison

22,000 overall

Again, as an aside, we can give Gondor a further 40,000 men of non-fighting age, and 60,000 women.
Gondor's total population: 120,000

Going by this, I'd also have given Minas Tirith a complete fighting force, during the Battle of the Pelennor fields, as about 8500 - with the men of Minas Tirith, Osgiliath, Cair Andros, Ithilien, and those of the fiefdoms in the city, minus about 1500 who had already been lost at Osgiliath, Cair Andros and the Rammas Echor, and the cavalry which is abroad.

So, let's figure out how many 'bad guys' there were on the Pelennor!

Firstly, what do we know? 18,000 bog-standard men of Harad.

To try and figure this out, I will use a points system - basically knowing that 'x' number of goodies defeated 'y' numbers of baddies limits just how many or how few baddies there were.

You'll notice some may seem to have a strangely high points allocation, this is due to, rather than simply giving the peoples strength indices, the circumstances will have to be taken into account - men with the protection of the city will have far greater points than men in the open.
The Elite guys try and take account of the Dunedain, and some of the Knights of Dol Amroth/Guards of the Citadel, aswell as Aragorn, Elrohir, Elladan, Legolas, Imrahil etc etc.


Orc: 5 (x ...)
Uruk: 8 (x ...)
Haradrim: 15 (x 18,000)
Trolls: 200 (x ...)
Mumakil: 1500 (x ...)

Minas Tirith Soldiers: 40 (x 8000)
Minas Tirith Cavalry: 70 (x 500)
Rohirrim: 40 (x 6000)
Aragorn's reinforcements: 20 (x 4000)
'Elite' guys: 100 (x 100)

Goods points: 685,000
Cumulative points of Orcs, Uruks, Trolls, and Mumakil: 415,000

So, that gives us some possibilites on bad numbers on the Pelennor

18,000 Haradrim
83,000 Orcs


18,000 Haradrim
60,000 Orcs
14,375 Uruks


18,000 Haradrim
45,000 Orcs
15,000 Uruks
200 Trolls
20 Mumakil

I think the bottom ones are obviously most likely and actually fit with my interpretation of the battle. You could probably add in a few Easterlings, but nothing major.
Moving on to the entire of Mordor... That becomes way harder. We know there were some 60,000 Orcs at the Battle of the Black Gate. There was also an unknown contingent who went to Dale/Erebor with the Easterlings, and further still, though a little more afield, Orcs also attacked Lorien from Dol-Guldor - however, whether these Orcs were simply from Dol-Guldor or were from Mordor and were 'camping' at Dol-Guldor (much like the Orcs of Isengard were Mordor's), is unknown. And even further still we have guys who are in Mordor - slave drivers and the like particularly around Nurn.

#5 Thorin

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 09:49 PM

And these were my replies to some comments about my estimates.

I'm not too sure, I think it could be just the opposite. It would not do to leave your city nearly empty and come back victorious only to find out that it was taken over by a roving band of brigands. It'd be anti-climatic :lol: In that case, it could have literally been only a tithe they sent.

Of course, which is why, for example, the Ringlo Vale sent only 30% of their force, which although not quite a tithe, is still an extremely small fraction, considering the fate of Gondor is in question. A constant 10% figure is a bit too arbitrary and idealistic for us analysis guys, and you'd expect the people who are in direct threat to send fewer.

This is more or less exactly in line with your estimates for Rohan - the military figures you give in particular go well with Theoden's 10 000 spears line. I'd like to give Rohan a few more for widespread farmers that aren't accounted for in the muster, but this would only add a few more thousand to total population, nothing worth going into depth over.

Well, Rohan's 12,000 is one of the few solid figures we're given. As I said, there is a reasonable chance there are men of fighting age who are only conscripted in times of need who may be farmers and the like, however as I said, if there are farmers who can be conscripted, I decided to account for them in men not of fighting age.

The problem I have is with Gondor - though your numbers are mathematically correct based on your military estimates,

I think you fail to take into account the numbers of men that would not be serving militarily. Rohan does seem to have mobilized itself fully with nearly every man riding for battle, but I would not say the same is true of Gondor.

This is something I have also taken into consideration - but we simply don't know. There was never any mention of a man of correct age who was not a soldier. There is little, if any, evidence to support the notion that Gondor's military structure and conscription (or lack thereof) is any different to Rohan's.

For instance, when the Army of the West crosses at Osgiliath on the way to the Black Gate, there is a multitude of craftsmen already working to repair the bridges the forces of Mordor destroyed in the retreat (I trust I don't need a quote.) Although it doesn't specify the origin of these craftsmen, I think one could wager they were not serving in the military, and perhaps were part of the contingent that repaired the Rammas. There were likely other such groups, such as armourers, cooks, doctors, farmers in safe areas of the land, etc. I won't try to put any specific numbers, cause there's simply no way of guessing. Perhaps I'm just grasping for straws, but Gondor being only twice the size of Rohan simply doesn't gel with my perception of Gondor, despite her decrepit state.

Personally I think it's more than fair - Rohan was the saviour of Gondor in that day. While cavalry (on the whole) is better than infantry - particularly in the open ground - it is almost unfeasible that Rohan could make such a difference if Gondor were considerably better. Do you think that the New Zealand army would be able to save the US from a joint attack from the rest of the world? 6000 was considered a vanguard of Numenor of old - and Numenor was exponentionally greater than Gondor of the end of the 3rd age, though I think it more likely refers particularly to the Numenoreans of Gondor and Arnor under Elendil. If these were 100,000 strong, I don't think that Gondor's later military of 22,000 is so outrageous. The men who repaired the Rammas, for example, while undoubtedly craftsman and builders, I would personally have thought also be part of the fighting force. While they may be a chance of being conscripts, I don't think that the number of conscripts would really be increadibly large.

I personally feel Minas Tirith and the Pelennor also had a much greater military garrison than you give them credit for - Minas Tirith could hardly be called the chief city of Gondor if it was little larger than Dol Amroth, and the densely populated Pelennor must also be taken into account. I also presume the rich farmlands throughout Gondor must have had a large population, some of it clustered into villages in this largely agrarian and market society, that would not be accounted for in any specific areas mentioned in the books.

When I say Dol Amroth, I rather mean Belfalas. Remember that beside the normal ~5000 garrison of Minas Tirith, there will be some other 20,000 men and women living in the Pelennor. The thing that is in my mind limiting such a huge population of Gondor is the fact that it simply can't be vastly larger than Rohan. We know Rohan to have a population of ~60,000, assuming every man of fighting age is part of the professional army. Again, the farmlands, or places just 'elsewhere' are accounted for, as I said, in the numbers of places like Ringlo Vale and Lamedon.

A population of 5 million is utterly laughable, and I'd be surprised if that person had any credibility at life.

I think this is the bottom line; the question of whether the professional army is made up of all the men of the right age, or only some. While I still maintain that 12,000 (which is factual) and 22,000 for Rohan and Gondor respectively are good guidelines for the professional army, there is of course some room for maneouvre. I think we do agree that these figures are 'reasonably' accurate (as in sensible), for the professional army. The question is that of conscripts (or men of fighting age not in the fighting force). Personally, I'd stay with my 60,000 figure, as there is no indication that there are men who are of the age and yet don't fight. Clearly, there must be special cases of smiths, cooks (Targon? :) ), but I'd have thought these already to be part of the fighting force and a part of their duty of being in their respective fighting forces are to supply the weapons or food to the troops. The farms I'd have thought to be tended to by the men too young or old.

Although just my estimates, I think the professional forces are sensibly accurate. And unless it can be found that there is a suggestion of a reasonably significant amount of men who are of fighting age not in the army (which would have to be for both Gondor and Rohan, as Gondor's muster simply must be proportional to Rohan; it can't be vastly larger), then there is little, except for Horde's gut feeling, to encourage me to change my mind :)

EDIT: And I just remembered about the Silmarillion. Turgon came out of Gondolin - undoubtedly a greater city in every aspect - with 10,000 men, and that is the presumed full strength of Gondolin given that the fate of the world rested on it. Perhaps 1000 or so were left behind, but nothing significant. I think if Gondolin had a full army of 10,000; then Minas Tirith's of 5000 (add/minus a few counting Osgiliath etc) is pretty reasonable. I think at least, then, there is little doubt in my ballpark figure of 22,000 of a professional army. But again with Gondolin we don't know how many Elves were fighting that could potentially fight that day. You'd expect the entire lot (given that every elf is pretty much a maestro) who could fight, would fight, and every Elf would be a part of the professional army.

Unless there is some evidence of conscription (which IMO there isn't for all sorts of reasons), or even men of fighting age who don't fight, then Gondor's population is pretty much between 100,000 and 150,000.
If Gondor had a population of 360,000; it'd have a conscripted potential army of 45,000 (aswell as the 22,000 professionals). They should be laughing at Mordor and Harad with a force like that - considering Men of Gondor have far better training, armour, weapons, tactics, and are inherantly stronger/faster/larger than Orcs. And they shouldn't expect Rohan to save them with a relatively puny 6,000 when they've got (minus the 10,000 in Minas tirith/Osgil/Cair/fiefdoms) 55,000 ontop not doing too much!

#6 mike_


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Posted 18 May 2008 - 04:18 PM

Excellent reasoning and estimates, Thorin.
Anyone else have something?

#7 robnkarla


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Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:16 AM

Not sure if this warrants another topic, so I'll just post it here.

I came across this store's site and I have to say it has a number of the largest resolution images of the games-workshop models I've come across.

http://www.imperialg... the Rings.html

Nothing that big, but I thought I'd mention it,
Robert J.

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