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Get rid of artillery and push back speeders in the tech tree


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#1 Sausage

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 03:14 AM

As of right now artillery in the game is incredibly overpowered and makes the game frustrating as it did in vanilla. Land two units of rebel artillery, which the Rebels get right off the bat, and you can pretty much pummel a whole map. It takes a serious defense to stand up to them and nothing the Empire has in its considerable arsenal measures up until you get to the M2. You could dump several units of ATSTs at them but you would need to do this co-ordinated from different directions otherwise you end up loosing all units usually before they ever get to fire a shot.

Perhaps the issue is with how far you can see on a map, very tiny area, and so you end up being ambushed by artillery again and again with little to no recourse.

Honestly at this point it's a point of frustration when playing as the Empire. Rebels always attack with a unit of arty and speeders. Talk about stupidly overpowered. God forbid you happen to get jumped when you have zero funds and can't build an air defense turret and are forced to retreat or die slowly or worse try to defend a planet where infantry is not allowed vs speeders.

Lots of issues with balancing here. Why bother building anything other than these two units over and over and over. With all the other units available you should get a chance to actually play with them but there is no point.

It's a lot more fun to have a slug fest between two armies rather than a one sided kick to the groin again and again and again.

So for sake of fun please dump the arty on both sides and push the speeder up the tech tree so you don't give a massive advantage to the rebels.

#2 Guest_Kitkun_*

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:58 AM

I have to admit that it's rather annoying, but Empire does have one counter to rebel artillery; speeder bikes. Too fast for the missiles, and just strong enough for that paper-thin armor. Other than that and lancets, you're screwed usually.

P.S. I'd register, but the system doesn't seem to like me right now.

#3 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 11:21 AM

I would disagree. In the real world, artillery is extremely powerful, and basically rules the battlefield. Possibly, it should be toned down (say, to be a lot less good against vehicles), but it should not be removed entirely.

#4 anakinskysolo

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 05:12 PM

The Empire have the the SPMA-T, which are as powerful as rebel artillery...

#5 Sausage

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 06:20 PM

I realize that the Empire gets the SPMAT-T but that's not the issue. Your units can't see more than a few dozen yards in front of them, artillery can fire at an insane speed and the Rebels tend to abuse this technology to great effect.

It's true that you can use the speeder bikes against them but they are killed usually on a single strafing run from a speeder and it takes so long for the thermal detonator to explode that you have to be lucky to get the arty with them. You could place them in front of the arty and ensure they blow up if they aren't defended well but that would require you to see a larger part of the map. If you try to adjust to where to put the detonator after you find them it's very possible to end up putting it where the arty won't even go to or your unit is killed by rocket soldiers/speeders in short order.

Anyway it's an exercise in frustration. The game mechanics just don't work well with artillery.

#6 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 06:31 PM

Have you ever played as the rebels? The imps can use artillery just as well, but if you only play as one side, then you don't notice it. It is probably a good idea to make artillery less effective against vehicles, but that doesn't mean we should remove it entirely. An alternitive would be to make it so that artillery can switch from AP to AV mode, but is weak to the one it isn't specialized against. The only real rebel artillery advantage is the spotter droids.

#7 Sausage

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 07:29 PM

Have you ever played as the rebels? The imps can use artillery just as well, but if you only play as one side, then you don't notice it. It is probably a good idea to make artillery less effective against vehicles, but that doesn't mean we should remove it entirely. An alternitive would be to make it so that artillery can switch from AP to AV mode, but is weak to the one it isn't specialized against. The only real rebel artillery advantage is the spotter droids.


You missed my point. I asked for artillery to be removed. Period. I didn't ask for only rebel artillery to be removed.

Again game mechanics are not suited for artillery in this game. At all.

#8 keraunos

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:02 PM

Well, it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like artillery. You might be interested in my mod which I'm slowly developing (old topic here: Realistic Star Wars; I didn't start new one, mod is far more advanced right now, yet still far till release)
[sorry for offtop; hopefully it won't be removed :thumbsupsmiley: ]

If you want to remove artillery from PR, you can do it yourself:
1) Open YOURFOCDIR\Mods\Phoenix_Rising_Space\Data\Xml folder
2) Find GroundCompaniesEmpire.xml, open it with notepad/any other wordeditor
3) Find line
<GroundCompany Name="Imperial_Artillery_Corp">
4) Add
<Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>
<Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>
just below and save
5) Find GroundCompaniesRebel.xml
6) Find line
<GroundCompany Name="Rebel_Artillery_Brigade">
7) Add
<Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>
<Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>
and save.

And voilla! You just got rid of artillery companies for both sides :]
Remember to make backup for both files :crazed:

#9 Sausage

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 11:43 PM

Well, it seems I'm not the only one who doesn't like artillery. You might be interested in my mod which I'm slowly developing (old topic here: Realistic Star Wars; I didn't start new one, mod is far more advanced right now, yet still far till release)
[sorry for offtop; hopefully it won't be removed :p ]

If you want to remove artillery from PR, you can do it yourself:
1) Open YOURFOCDIR\Mods\Phoenix_Rising_Space\Data\Xml folder
2) Find GroundCompaniesEmpire.xml, open it with notepad/any other wordeditor
3) Find line
<GroundCompany Name="Imperial_Artillery_Corp">
4) Add
<Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>
<Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>
just below and save
5) Find GroundCompaniesRebel.xml
6) Find line
<GroundCompany Name="Rebel_Artillery_Brigade">
7) Add
<Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Current_Per_Player>
<Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>0</Build_Limit_Lifetime_Per_Player>
and save.

And voilla! You just got rid of artillery companies for both sides :]
Remember to make backup for both files :)



Wicked! Thank you thank you thank you!!!

This should make the game so much more fun. Going to go try it now.

#10 Casen

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 06:39 AM

The artillery given in Empire at War sucks...SPMA-T especially. I mean, it says it's a "turbolaser" but it's clearly not, and since when can they arch? Makes absolutely no sense. It's just ugly.

The rebel artillery I like better, but I greatly prefer the Loratus Torpedo Launcher from Force Commander, as it feels more..."canon" to me.

Generally everything created for Force Commander feels more canon to me than things created for Empire at War for some reason...though I'll be one to theorize it may be more due to nostalgia than anything else.

Or it's because the creators of Command & Conquer made the vehicles for Empire at War...yeah that's part of the reason.

#11 keraunos

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 03:54 PM

The artillery given in Empire at War sucks...SPMA-T especially. I mean, it says it's a "turbolaser" but it's clearly not, and since when can they arch? Makes absolutely no sense. It's just ugly.

The rebel artillery I like better, but I greatly prefer the Loratus Torpedo Launcher from Force Commander, as it feels more..."canon" to me.

Generally everything created for Force Commander feels more canon to me than things created for Empire at War for some reason...though I'll be one to theorize it may be more due to nostalgia than anything else.

Or it's because the creators of Command & Conquer made the vehicles for Empire at War...yeah that's part of the reason.

Pity that I didn't play Force Commander, as I'd like to go a bit more 'feel' of technical stuff of SW. The problem with EAW land combat is that it doesn't give 'feel' of Star Wars - blaster-armed inf dies instantly becouse of artillery, and we don't get many squads, either.

#12 TheEmpire

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 04:28 PM

Artillery Needs to be in the mod! It is canon and in is infulental in any battle. Yes the rebels artilery is way over powered but the imps get ATAT's. The Imps artillery should be the SPHA and the SPMA
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#13 keraunos

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 06:12 PM

Artillery Needs to be in the mod! It is canon and in is infulental in any battle. Yes the rebels artilery is way over powered but the imps get ATAT's. The Imps artillery should be the SPHA and the SPMA

So what? Imperial ATATs cost 1000, take forever to build and are easily destroyed by Rebel PLEX Squads/Speeders which are way cheaper.

#14 Clubby

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 09:38 PM

um, atats have almost as much range as any artillery, can deploy stormtroopers to counter plex soldiers, and in my experience are even better than at-aa at shooting down speeders (as long as they fly in front of them). They earn that 1000 credit cost.

On artillery, it (all three of em) should be nerfed a little. faster rate of fire, longer range, and less (like a third of it's total damage) is what I think. But this less damage against vehicles idea seems strange. It's artillery, it's supposed to be fragile but a battle winner. But it shouldn't devastate anything it hits, because it's indirect fire and therefore inaccurate.

#15 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 12:48 AM

The reason that artillery should be weak against vehicles is simple. In the real world, most artillery shoots fragmentation shells. These are excellent against infantry, but are not effective against armored vehicles. Thus, the change. The damage should probably be reduced overall, too. Still, it needs to stay in the game, but with an effective countermeasure unit. And I agree with Kacen that turbolaser artillery makes no sense. A turbolaser will travel in a straight line.

#16 Clubby

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 02:29 AM

I think that vehicle thing would only apply to tanks. I doubt that a bradley or humvee could take an artillery barrage. And yeah, turbolasers that arc don't make sense. Maybe trebuchets that launch giant thermal detonators? :mellow:

#17 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 01:10 PM

A Bradley is supposed to be armored against that type of thing. Still, it really isn't designed to destroy vehicles. And a hummer will be damaged, but it isn't as vulnerable as infantry. Also, the engine allows you to change the damage dealt to various units. Here is my proposal for artillery:
To get the final artillery, make the following changes. Reduce damage by about 50%, but make sure it has enough to kill infantry. Reduce damage against vehicles by another 25%. Increase range. Decrease artillery speed and hit points. Add some sort of airspeeder early to allow counter-artillery missions, possibly atmospheric TIEs and Z-95s. Theses are strong against artillery.

#18 keraunos

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 03:15 PM

Maybe trebuchets that launch giant thermal detonators? :mellow:

:dry:

I see a lot of comparison to today's world, but IMO you're missing the point. We see artillery only in recent movie (AoTC); whereas in classical trilogy - not at all. During Rebellion time most battles were fast, relying more on speed & hit-n-run tactics then anything else. Even the most powerful weapon (AT-AT) is quite mobile... It's SW world, with it's own rules...

We also see masses of infantry in SW. Artillery makes them totaly obsolete - even single artillery can easily decimate like 10 enemy squads, since it takes 1 shot to eliminate a squad. That's not the case with other units: it still takes a while to kill AT-AT with PLEX squad, or to kill inf with Swampspeeders. If inf have like 3:1 numerical superiority they can even kill Swampspeeder. Try the same with artillery :mellow: So even proposed changes won't solve everything - they'll simply make AT-AT + Art combo unbeatable, and we'll require another patch...

Therefore artillery: uncanonical, unbalancing, dead :p

#19 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 06:57 PM

I wouldn't be so hasty in calling it uncannon. You have ignored any sorce outside the movies, which have special circiumstances. Genosis is the only real full-scale land battle, and we saw artillery there. On Hoth, the imps needed to move quickly, so the artillery would have been left behind. On Endor, they were not expecting an attack they needed artillery to defeat. On Utapau, the sinkhole would have suverely limited the usefulness of artillery. Lastly, you would say that modern infantry is obsolete because of artillery. This is obviously false, and I can't think of a reason to remove artillery. One solution is to produce a unit that shoots down artillery shells in flight. This is not canon, but very much a possibility. This would serve as an effective countermeasure. Lastly, artillery would be vulnerable to other artillery.

#20 anakinskysolo

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 07:47 PM

I think PR should eliminate every non-canon EAW vehicle and add only those which appear in the movies and EU. The artillery in EAW is obviously non-canon. Please don't ask why and figure it for yourselves.



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