118 replies to this topic

[Kaleb Graff]

I wouldn't be so hasty in calling it uncannon. You have ignored any sorce outside the movies, which have special circiumstances. Genosis is the only real full-scale land battle, and we saw artillery there. On Hoth, the imps needed to move quickly, so the artillery would have been left behind. On Endor, they were not expecting an attack they needed artillery to defeat. On Utapau, the sinkhole would have suverely limited the usefulness of artillery.

That's my point. Most of the battles has special circumstances - becouse most battles were fought "on the move". Ok, you can have artillery in prolonged conflict (some battles of Clone Wars) but then you should be able to bring some more reinforcements. So we talk about skirmish here...

Lastly, you would say that modern infantry is obsolete because of artillery. This is obviously false, and I can't think of a reason to remove artillery. One solution is to produce a unit that shoots down artillery shells in flight. This is not canon, but very much a possibility. This would serve as an effective countermeasure. Lastly, artillery would be vulnerable to other artillery.

Nope, modern infantry is not obsolete, but:
1)It doesn't move in big blobby squads (well, at least not 2/3 squads per 2/3 artillery units, which is the case now).
2)Problem is not firepower, but means to find enemy. EaW artillery doesn't have this problem.
3)Each shell hits, killing entire squads. If not, second or third will do.
4)Maps are small, so hidding from artillery is rarely an issue. Not mentioning it's impossible for infantry to hide in - say - forrest.
5)Artillery IRL is countered by:
a)airforce - I don't have to say how sophisticated is EaW airforce
b)own artillery
IRL everyone has some of one of the other. In game: you didn't produce it - you're screwed.

Also, I would count the hailfire droid as artillery.

I wouldn't - but it (rather, something similar and more canonical) could serve as a good base for replacing unit. Something with medium range rockets, highly mobile and fragile

This has got to be the worst case of "WAAAH" i've seen in awhile.
Am i the only one that doesn't have problems with these things...? they're not THAT powerful.
For all of you guys saying remove them : Why? By all means make them harder to produce/use/research but removing them pretty much removes the only thing you have to actually worry about in Land Battles.

They are that powerful - you contradict yourself by stating that they are "the only thing you have to actualy worry about in Land Battles". And no, making them harder to produce/use/research will simply cripple AI further or give player unfair advantage - and I'd like to evade both. I don't want to see any more battles: my army vs artillery. I'd rather see AI with more balanced army of actual SW units.


I also fully agree with Anakin - we're talking about canon here. Artillery screws it completely, as you finish not with AT-STs, Scout Troopers and Stormtroopers, but rather AT-AT+artillery+Lancet combos. Why to produce cheaper units if they'll die instantly confronted with powerful ones? Land combat is not a SW universe anymore, just another (not very good) RTS.

You make some good points here, but this really goes to the heart of the EAW system. I agree that it needs some work, but problems with artillery in the current system are hardly justification to remove it from the mod. It does need to be toned down some, but it should remain. Your points about real life are true, but can be corrected. The mod does need to be changed to make it more like space combat, in that you still need fighters to win, dispite having star destroyers. The hailfire droid is artillery. It fires long-range missiles that fit the definition of artillery. Your point about skirmishes is interesting, but remember, the map you play on is representative of an entire planet.

Some call it whining, others call it reasonable. In the end it's all opinion, however canon is not opinion and you aren't waging war on the ground on the scale of Episode II.

I would be the first to want to see artillery given a proper treatment and fully operational when you can fight on the scale where it would actually be used and made sense to use.

This isn't even a near miss in terms of canon representation of Star Wars ground combat. Developers can do much better and technology exists to do so. While I think everyone can welcome EAW's ground combat as a step in the right direction it is just that. A step.

Could you enhance it to make the best of what you got? Sure you could build massive maps, drop the fog of war and make realistic artillery that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, let alone home in on a single trooper. That's canon. This isn't.

I have nothing further to add. All my points have been covered by both myself and others very well.

I agree that with the land mod, artillery, and everything, will have to change. Still, artillery being unbalanced in this version is no reason to scrap it in the next one.

[Kaleb Graff]

give t2-b tanks a modified point defense system, as well as 2-m tanks (yes, they are unequal, perhaps later t-2b and initail 2-m upgrades)
this armor would be able to support infantry and be able to withstand arty.


OR gorund vheicles could be made expensive for the rebels, yet their attacks would be infantry+aircraft hit+run-more canon, no?

Interesting idea. I hadn't thought of using PD to remove artillery. The rebel ground vehicles will likely be more expensive, at least for the same capabilities.

[Kalo Shin]

This has got to be the worst case of "WAAAH" i've seen in awhile.
Am i the only one that doesn't have problems with these things...? they're not THAT powerful.
For all of you guys saying remove them : Why? By all means make them harder to produce/use/research but removing them pretty much removes the only thing you have to actually worry about in Land Battles.

They are that powerful - you contradict yourself by stating that they are "the only thing you have to actualy worry about in Land Battles". And no, making them harder to produce/use/research will simply cripple AI further or give player unfair advantage - and I'd like to evade both. I don't want to see any more battles: my army vs artillery. I'd rather see AI with more balanced army of actual SW units.

Let me put this in a way you can understand :

How am i contradicting myself? I said they're not that powerful because what i see people saying here is : "They're so powerful and cant be countered unless you do it in such and such a way (Like AT-ST or Speederbike Spam)"

When it's not true...

They're powerful, and can do serious damage to you if you don't plan how to kill them, but they are NOT as powerful as people here make them out to be...And their power that enables them to do that against stupid AI or stupid players OR a bad mistake which lead you into a trap.

[A1Dasdfsdkli4r2]

Regardless of what your position is one must admit that ground combat is fairly bland and could hardly be called Star Warsy. It's just too tiny and has performance issues even with what it can do.

Other companies have paved the way in terms of epic scale combat like Total War and can pull it off with amazing performance. LucasArts should buy a license for that engine and go to work. The end result could be insanely spectacular. Combine that with Sins of a Solar Empire engine and you can call it a day. You just built the ultimate Star Wars game.

yeah. From what but whent i've heard of sins of solar empire, It would be Rebellion at it's finest. and by Rebellion I mean the old RTS. also yeah, the vanilla ground combat doesn't have that epic feel to it.

[Kaleb Graff]

Just because you worry about somthing in land battles doesn't mean it's overpowered. I plan to start a thread adressing the basic problems of ground combat (not enough units, ect.) soon. Any real, long term, problems with artillery are most likely the fault of the person running the battle, not the unit itself. I've never had that much trouble with enemy artillery.

[keraunos]

You make some good points here, but this really goes to the heart of the EAW system. I agree that it needs some work, but problems with artillery in the current system are hardly justification to remove it from the mod. It does need to be toned down some, but it should remain. Your points about real life are true, but can be corrected. The mod does need to be changed to make it more like space combat, in that you still need fighters to win, dispite having star destroyers. The hailfire droid is artillery. It fires long-range missiles that fit the definition of artillery. Your point about skirmishes is interesting, but remember, the map you play on is representative of an entire planet.

The problem is that vanilla maps are really small, so one art unit is able to cover 1/10 of entire planet with shells.. You'll have to change the scale of entire game. Another thing is that art will retain it's importance due to very good range, and this is not something I could call 'feel SW-like'. I'd like to see more AT-ATs, AT-STs, Speeder Bikes, Air Speeders, T2Bs and, above all, infantry instead.

OR gorund vheicles could be made expensive for the rebels, yet their attacks would be infantry+aircraft hit+run-more canon, no?

Good idea

Let me put this in a way you can understand :

Thanks. I see you finally improved your ability to express yourself

How am i contradicting myself? I said they're not that powerful because what i see people saying here is : "They're so powerful and cant be countered unless you do it in such and such a way (Like AT-ST or Speederbike Spam)"

When it's not true...

They're powerful, and can do serious damage to you if you don't plan how to kill them, but they are NOT as powerful as people here make them out to be...And their power that enables them to do that against stupid AI or stupid players OR a bad mistake which lead you into a trap..

If you write that they are the only unit that human player can have problem with, and then write they are not THAT powerful - that's contradiction for me.

Of course artillery can be countered easily, but it takes much from game. Each one of your forces has to include Airspeeders/Lancets (which AI is unable to cope with) and problem's solved. But art is the only unit that is able to kill entire squad-two with single salvo (even the ones that are supposed to be counter them - like speeder bikes). Add terrific range and they are battle winning unit.

Good - sure. But in RTS game, not SW game. I don't recall ANY battle (in movie/novel/comic/etc.) won mostly by artillery.

[Kaleb Graff]

Artilley by itself itsn't that good. It's vulnerable to AT-AT's among other things.

[keraunos]

Artilley by itself itsn't that good. It's vulnerable to AT-AT's among other things.

Not imperial artillery Pity there's no friendly fire in game...

[Kaleb Graff]

I've always played as the rebels. Still, the imp artillery is very vulnerable to airspeeders.

[anakinskysolo]

Just because you worry about somthing in land battles doesn't mean it's overpowered. I plan to start a thread adressing the basic problems of ground combat (not enough units, ect.) soon. Any real, long term, problems with artillery are most likely the fault of the person running the battle, not the unit itself. I've never had that much trouble with enemy artillery.

I believe that the problem with artillery is not that its very powerful, but it doesn't feel Star Wars. As I mentioned before, the Empire artillery fires a turbolaser that arcs and the Rebel artillery fires never ending proton torpedoes that are not real proton torpedoes. They should be eliminated from the game and replaced with canonical artillery, and that would solve much of the problem because the canonical artillery isn't so powerful and accurate as the ones in-game. Say, for example, the REAL SPMA-T cannot hit infantry and the Hailfire is much less accurate than the Rebel artillery and needs to be reloaded after no missiles are left.

[Kaleb Graff]

I believe that the problem with artillery is not that its very powerful, but it doesn't feel Star Wars. As I mentioned before, the Empire artillery fires a turbolaser that arcs and the Rebel artillery fires never ending proton torpedoes that are not real proton torpedoes. They should be eliminated from the game and replaced with canonical artillery, and that would solve much of the problem because the canonical artillery isn't so powerful and accurate as the ones in-game. Say, for example, the REAL SPMA-T cannot hit infantry and the Hailfire is much less accurate than the Rebel artillery and needs to be reloaded after no missiles are left.

I agree almost completely. Turbolasers that arc are ridiculous. The proton torpedoes also need to be replaced, but are not as big of a deal. Still, we do need to keep artillery in some form around. The hailfire isn't that inaccurate, but did have the problem of limited ammo.

[Kaleb Graff]

I find it hilarious you complain about artillery when a moderatly skilled player can take/defend a planet on normal with Kyle Katarn and maybe some plex troopers. I've gone on capture sprees like that.

I agree. The units themselves are not overpowered, but they can be the death of some players.

[keraunos]

Well, I'm not saying they are invincible - only way better then others. Play against AI can only be roleplay really, since AI will never be capable of beating human. If you want challange play online or give enemy units bonuses, not create one better-then-others unit and wait till AI actually produces it...

[Kaleb Graff]

Well, I'm not saying they are invincible - only way better then others. Play against AI can only be roleplay really, since AI will never be capable of beating human. If you want challange play online or give enemy units bonuses, not create one better-then-others unit and wait till AI actually produces it...

It isn't a better than others unit. The problem you are having is almost certianly not the unit, just your employment of it. To be honest, I haven't found it that much of a problem, because the imps bring the artillery up, instead of having somthing spot for it.

[Clubby]

I love it when they do that, so much effort, so little movement by those little legs...

[Kaleb Graff]

I love it when they do that, so much effort, so little movement by those little legs...

It is rather funny. I just concentrate fire on them and they die. Still, it needs to be fixed in the upgrade.

[sideshow_bob]

WAIT-IDEA

in star wars, there would be almost no artilleriy on a typical map-really most attackers would use orbiting ships and direct fire on enemy bases

so why not make orbital bombardment muuch faster to reload, but also a single volley of around 5 REAL turbolaser shots, effective against vheicles, but not against infantry

[Dane Kiet]

But artillery is still useful for when you don't have or need ships that big in orbit. These people just need to learn how to fight them, it is not hard. I fear AT-ATs more than them.