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Sovereign-class sucks?


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#21 coinich

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:25 AM

The one gripe I have with double-clicking is that it doesn't select the various upgrades together, but I don't think it can be fixed.


I personally understand each upgrade as an independant ship to the engine, despite the "is variant of" tag I've seen. Not that I've done much in the way of modding this game. Ctr-A is what bugs me; it groups MC-120s and X-Wings together at random. :rolleyes:

I managed to pull off a popcap of 127 space wise without too much dangerous lag, but after that, managing is limited to Ctr-A and just pointing where the enemy is; its too complicated otherwise with all of the fighter spawns. Smaller ships (DP-27...) can't be selected at all. Seen as many as 5 Praetors at once too... :D

Also, how come your AI uses Sovereigns? Mine won't upgrade anything, even with the new Zarkis mod and a new game. How long did it take them to get it?

#22 keraunos

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 12:48 PM

Also, how come your AI uses Sovereigns? Mine won't upgrade anything, even with the new Zarkis mod and a new game. How long did it take them to get it?

About 33 weeks into Thrawn Campaign, using Zarkis AI mod. I battled it (and 2 Preators) near Bilbiringi. I ended 4 weeks later assaulting Yaga Minor.

It makes sure that whatever the enemy throws at you can be countered. Use hotkeys for control. The one gripe I have with double-clicking is that it doesn't select the various upgrades together, but I don't think it can be fixed.

True, but the problem is we lack enought hotkeys :rolleyes: I group 1 dreadnought/hotkey, 2-3 capships/escorts/hotkey, as otherwise my spaceships tend to wander too much :D

As for countering things, I see ships as a bit more universal: I don't try to remember each ships's weapon, only first divide them into 'categories': turbo+ion - anticapital, lasers - antifighters (or more commonly - combination of the two). Then try to create balanced force using most of the ships, but only few types per fleet :D

#23 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 07:00 PM

The one gripe I have with double-clicking is that it doesn't select the various upgrades together, but I don't think it can be fixed.


I personally understand each upgrade as an independant ship to the engine, despite the "is variant of" tag I've seen. Not that I've done much in the way of modding this game. Ctr-A is what bugs me; it groups MC-120s and X-Wings together at random. :p

I managed to pull off a popcap of 127 space wise without too much dangerous lag, but after that, managing is limited to Ctr-A and just pointing where the enemy is; its too complicated otherwise with all of the fighter spawns. Smaller ships (DP-27...) can't be selected at all. Seen as many as 5 Praetors at once too... ;)

Also, how come your AI uses Sovereigns? Mine won't upgrade anything, even with the new Zarkis mod and a new game. How long did it take them to get it?

My best was 75, but I had the Lusankya, so there were a lot more units then normal (I think that it just counts it as 1 or even 0). I agree on control A, though.

Also, how come your AI uses Sovereigns? Mine won't upgrade anything, even with the new Zarkis mod and a new game. How long did it take them to get it?

About 33 weeks into Thrawn Campaign, using Zarkis AI mod. I battled it (and 2 Preators) near Bilbiringi. I ended 4 weeks later assaulting Yaga Minor.

It makes sure that whatever the enemy throws at you can be countered. Use hotkeys for control. The one gripe I have with double-clicking is that it doesn't select the various upgrades together, but I don't think it can be fixed.

True, but the problem is we lack enought hotkeys :p I group 1 dreadnought/hotkey, 2-3 capships/escorts/hotkey, as otherwise my spaceships tend to wander too much ;)

As for countering things, I see ships as a bit more universal: I don't try to remember each ships's weapon, only first divide them into 'categories': turbo+ion - anticapital, lasers - antifighters (or more commonly - combination of the two). Then try to create balanced force using most of the ships, but only few types per fleet ;)


We do indeed, but useage is the problem. I'm still refining, but I do 1. Anti-capital capitals (anything larger then a fighter/bomber/transport), 2. Anti-fighter capitals, 3. Capital escort fighters, 4. Bombers, 5. Bomber escort fighters, 6. Interceptor fighters, 7. Support units (repair ships) 8. Empty 9. Empty

#24 coinich

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 08:09 PM

Wait, you can group via hotkeys? I feel so n00bish now, and I even looked for them!

#25 keraunos

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 04:01 PM

Wait, you can group via hotkeys? I feel so n00bish now, and I even looked for them!

Yup, standard Ctrl+1...9 to remember, 1...9 to select.

Kaleb, what about pathfinding? Could you post one of 'typical' fleet compositions? I mean on battlefield (ships brought to fight).. For me it's like 0-1 dreadnought (hotkey 1) +2-4 capitals (hotkeys 1/2-3/4), 2-3 AA frigates (dodonnas/dreadnoughts or appriopriately more lancers) (hotkeys 4/5) and rest are usually some fighters and bomber groups, sometimes tugs, interdictors (unless I leave them at the back) etc. For me more then 2 ships per group mean big pathfinding problems (obviously I talk only about non-squadron diffrent-attitude ships)

#26 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 22 April 2008 - 07:19 PM

Wait, you can group via hotkeys? I feel so n00bish now, and I even looked for them!

Yup, standard Ctrl+1...9 to remember, 1...9 to select.

Kaleb, what about pathfinding? Could you post one of 'typical' fleet compositions? I mean on battlefield (ships brought to fight).. For me it's like 0-1 dreadnought (hotkey 1) +2-4 capitals (hotkeys 1/2-3/4), 2-3 AA frigates (dodonnas/dreadnoughts or appriopriately more lancers) (hotkeys 4/5) and rest are usually some fighters and bomber groups, sometimes tugs, interdictors (unless I leave them at the back) etc. For me more then 2 ships per group mean big pathfinding problems (obviously I talk only about non-squadron diffrent-attitude ships)


I don't have a typical fleet composition right now. I'm only on my second campaign, and on the first one, the AI didn't work. My strategy is changing, as my first was Thrawn, and now I'm on GFFA. Still, I've found mixed groups to be best. My biggest group right now is something like this:
1. MC 80, MC 40, EE 76
2. Recusant, 2 Corvettes
3. All Z-95 mk I and II (about 6 independent, 2 from Neb)
4. All Y-wings (about 20 independent)
5. Z-95 v. III (20-ish)
6. All X-wings & A-wings (11 independent X-wings)
7. remaining Z-95s (10 ish)

I'll check later, and give you better numbers.

#27 keraunos

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 04:38 PM

I don't have a typical fleet composition right now. I'm only on my second campaign, and on the first one, the AI didn't work. My strategy is changing, as my first was Thrawn, and now I'm on GFFA. Still, I've found mixed groups to be best. My biggest group right now is something like this:
1. MC 80, MC 40, EE 76
2. Recusant, 2 Corvettes
3. All Z-95 mk I and II (about 6 independent, 2 from Neb)
4. All Y-wings (about 20 independent)
5. Z-95 v. III (20-ish)
6. All X-wings & A-wings (11 independent X-wings)
7. remaining Z-95s (10 ish)

I'll check later, and give you better numbers.

Not necessary, really, I've got all info I was looking for. And it seems I was right - you don't have pathfinding issues becouse you have up to 2 units per 'Z axis level'. I tend to use a lot more 'heavy ships', and this gives me terrible headache.

I hope Phoenix will solve it somehow :)

#28 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 07:35 PM

I always play as rebels, so I put less emphisis on heavy units.

#29 coinich

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 10:39 PM

Turns out I forgot to instal the Zarkis mod... Bah!

Now my butt's being whipped...

Heavy units are my downfall, but I do love the MC-40 frigate. Its strong and powerful and cheap; fine for early game work.

#30 keraunos

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 05:24 PM

I always play as rebels, so I put less emphisis on heavy units.

Well, even when I play Rebles (know your enemy :) ) I try to build more heavy stuff, mostly MC-80s. Like I stated before, all-fighters fleets are simply too powerful now. At least against AI, which can't defend properly

#31 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 09:33 PM

I always play as rebels, so I put less emphisis on heavy units.

Well, even when I play Rebles (know your enemy :) ) I try to build more heavy stuff, mostly MC-80s. Like I stated before, all-fighters fleets are simply too powerful now. At least against AI, which can't defend properly


I plan to play as the imps soon. (After my current GFFA is over)

#32 Kitkun

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:17 AM

I always play as rebels, so I put less emphasis on heavy units.

Well, even when I play Rebels (know your enemy :) ) I try to build more heavy stuff, mostly MC-80s. Like I stated before, all-fighters fleets are simply too powerful now. At least against AI, which can't defend properly


I plan to play as the imps soon. (After my current GFFA is over)

Really? I've never been able to complete a GFFA due to lag. With a 3gig dual core and 4gigs of ram, I can only get to about week 50 somethin' or other.

As imps, don't build sovereigns, otherwise it becomes kinds boring, and repetitive. And go for Nova Wings, those things own.

Actually, I limited each dreadnought to a certain amount, (Bulwark - 4, Independence - 6, Praetor - 6, Executor - 1, Sovereign - 0) and enjoy it much more. Before, the AI spammed Bulwarks at me, now I actually see upgraded ships! (I have Zarkis.)

Edited by Kitkun, 20 December 2008 - 09:32 AM.

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#33 Kaleb Graff

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 10:31 PM

I always play as rebels, so I put less emphasis on heavy units.

Well, even when I play Rebels (know your enemy :blink: ) I try to build more heavy stuff, mostly MC-80s. Like I stated before, all-fighters fleets are simply too powerful now. At least against AI, which can't defend properly


I plan to play as the imps soon. (After my current GFFA is over)

Really? I've never been able to complete a GFFA due to lag. With a 3gig dual core and 4gigs of ram, I can only get to about week 50 somethin or other.

As imps, don't build sovereigns, otherwise it becomes kinds boring, and repetitive. And go for Nova Wings, those things own.

Actually, I limited each dreadnought to a certain amount, (Bulwark - 4, Independence - 6, Praetor - 6, Executor - 1, Sovereign - 0) and enjoy it much more. Before, the ai spammed bulwarks at me, now I actually see upgraded ships! (I have Zarkis)

I'm still on week 35, but I'm doing very well.

#34 keraunos

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 02:44 PM

Kitkun, those numbers seems very well balanced, I'll probably include them in my modding as well :p

#35 Kitkun

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 06:49 PM

Kitkun, those numbers seems very well balanced, I'll probably include them in my modding as well :p


Heh, after using 1 Bulwark, 1 Independence, and a Hajen to destroy 48 ISDs, I've since removed them entirely. I find it even more interesting now that the only way to get a dreadnought is through heroes.

Edited by Kitkun, 20 December 2008 - 09:32 AM.

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#36 sideshow_bob

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 08:01 PM

you use heros!??!
lol

Edited by sideshow_bob, 01 May 2008 - 08:01 PM.

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#37 keraunos

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 03:07 PM

Kitkun, those numbers seems very well balanced, I'll probably include them in my modding as well :xd:


lol, after using 1 Bulwark, 1 Independence, and a Hajen to destroy 48 ISDs, I've since removed them entirely. I find it even more interesting now that the only way to get a dreadnought is through heroes.

No, I'll stick to your numbers, I'll only make units smaller :p

#38 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 07:42 PM

Still, the maps could be larger, seeing as the space maps are all from vanilla, and they aren't that hard to resize.

The maps were actually already resized once, I believe as early as the mini-mod.

So IMO rescaling ships should help, as it limits visual experience a bit, but gives more tactical control over battlefield.

Rescaling ships is tantamount to changing their stats. That's why the scale in EaW was so bad, X-wings aren't 50 meters long and Tartans (apparently) aren't 150 meters either. Scale is effectively a defense rating for how difficult it is to hit something, so if you're changing scale, you're making that unit better or worse. That's why everything in PR is always to scale, regardless of how much the engine hates it.

The one gripe I have with double-clicking is that it doesn't select the various upgrades together, but I don't think it can be fixed.

No, EaW isn't supposed to have upgrades :p.

#39 keraunos

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 11:14 PM

So IMO rescaling ships should help, as it limits visual experience a bit, but gives more tactical control over battlefield.

Rescaling ships is tantamount to changing their stats. That's why the scale in EaW was so bad, X-wings aren't 50 meters long and Tartans (apparently) aren't 150 meters either. Scale is effectively a defense rating for how difficult it is to hit something, so if you're changing scale, you're making that unit better or worse. That's why everything in PR is always to scale, regardless of how much the engine hates it.

Is it? I thought that weapons accuracy is based on 'accuracy vs class' and 'class' stats :o

If what you're writing is right, then I start to respect EaW/FoC more :p I'd really like to know this, as I even started to adjust various ships accuracy according to RPG stats in my suspended mod (Realistic Star Wars)

#40 Phoenix Rising

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Posted 24 September 2008 - 11:44 PM

Yeah, exactly. Inaccuracy is an angle, so if you adjust scale, more or less shots will hit.



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