76 replies to this topic

[MSpencer]

The Earth wasn't "created" specially in seven units of time, either. If anything, it was one big blendy event. Second, the hubris that is required to assume we're the only ones out there, that we're special, or that anyone super-powerful and near-deity cares about our very existence is substantial, and amazingly doesn't seem to be as large a leap of logic as it actually is to some people.
The fact of the matter is, there is a much more simple explanation than the "creation" of the Earth. Science can't explain something we can't grasp, and somehow, if you told me that the Earth was just *poof* made in seven periods of time by some otherworldly entity, I would not only have a tough time believing you, I would have a tough time determining a mechanism, a cause, a source of free energy, a method for the transportation of such amounts of raw matter, a reason for the seven time periods, a method of coordinating the "creation" of all the other planets out there, and a way of ensuring that life will form and continue onwards to this particular form. The inconsistencies with a creation myth tend to be exponentially greater than any inconsistencies in the physicist's view of the formation of the universe. Imagine an intelligence so vast, so much greater than us (I can, but that's because I believe given enough time and the requisite environment for development, anything's possible with a few sp3 carbons, some hydrogen, and a few other simple atoms to form a basic biochemical system), but of course, bound by the same physical laws. First, how would they do it? Second, why would they do it? Third, why should we care? Fourth, can we ever prove it? And fifth, does it fit Occam's razor?
I believe in a rational universe I can, and do, understand. For me, there is no god because it seems to be a far more irrational thing to do, to postulate the existence of some sort of creator, rather than looking at the universe as we understand it, and seeing an origin there.

[Cheshire Fox]

I'm not sure where I stand exactly on believing in God or not, but I'd just like to make a few points:

I agree... people can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't try to impose it upon others

Completely agreed. I think this is the most important thing to remember with regards to religion.

Thing is, I've noticed theists being far more imposing compared to atheists.

Exact opposite for me. For many thousands of years this was obviously very, very true. I find that in modern times, many atheists I know use this as an excuse to force their beliefs on theists, saying "I'm sick of having your beliefs on me, I'm gonna stand up for myself!" when in fact the worst they've had is a random mormon from out of town politely offering them a book, while they yell at and insult the religious. But I live in a very, very liberal notoriously progressive town.

You know thats in the bible, right?

For the record, New Testament stuff. Jews aren't into that.

assume we're the only ones out there

Actually, that's not necessarily assumed. There have been Rabbi's and Kabbalists who have taken interest in whether or not there have been other races created by God. I can't find the book right now where it's mentioned so I don't have the name, unfortunately.

[robnkarla]

assume we're the only ones out there

Actually, that's not necessarily assumed. There have been Rabbi's and Kabbalists who have taken interest in whether or not there have been other races created by God. I can't find the book right now where it's mentioned so I don't have the name, unfortunately.

They are not the only ones who have taken an interest to this. The idea that if a God is the creator of everything, why would God choose one planet to create life and focus all the attention only there for millions of years to work on the cultivation of a planet for human life? Would this be the only area of interest out of everything to devote all effort, or is it just one area of creation that is viewed as important among others for reasons that are unknown to us.

Just thoughts.

[Drewry]

For me, there is no god because it seems to be a far more irrational thing to do, to postulate the existence of some sort of creator, rather than looking at the universe as we understand it, and seeing an origin there.

You would base the origin of the universe on your understanding of how the universe came to its existence, and I would base the origin of the universe on my understanding of why the universe came to its existence. Certainly these two opposing viewpoints are indeed one of the same; such that it has created this encompassing reality. Science may never explain why something works. This very question is in fact a fundamental element of humanity. What is the purpose? Sure we can explain to incredible lengths the functions of the laws of physics, atomic energy and the celestial lights above. But we may never truly understand the purpose of this awesome expansion by ignoring our spirituality that is, after all, innate to all of humanity.

That longing for why we must exist, why do we continue day after day--this is the root of the human spirit; indeed the soul. This is that very spiritual element that has created religion for centuries. However, I do not believe that religion was created out of the will to do harm, it is rather the evil of man that has sought this path--the road to hell is paved on good intentions. The reason that religion has been embraced, and will always continue to do so, derives from our inherent spirituality. It is this very need that I believe is integral to the existence of god--in whatever form that may be. I have long said that it is the teachings of religion that may create peace on earth, if only it were not for its teachers.

Edited by Drewry, 16 April 2008 - 08:00 PM.

[Clubby]

Interesting question, considering some people ask How can he/she/it not?

[ambershee]

The Earth wasn't "created" specially in seven units of time, either. If anything, it was one big blendy event. Second, the hubris that is required to assume we're the only ones out there, that we're special, or that anyone super-powerful and near-deity cares about our very existence is substantial, and amazingly doesn't seem to be as large a leap of logic as it actually is to some people.

You make far too many assumptions that the assumptions you're making based on your own logic are correct from the get-go. Your whole argument is flawed before you've begun. How does any of that disprove the existance of a divine being?

Blind faith in science is no better than blind faith in christianity. And they're both religions.

[Cheshire Fox]

And they're both religions.

Oh fuckin a, NOW you've done it. Here we go AGAIN. Like we haven't heard this before.

[Elvenlord]

And here we go back to, after all the arguements, that simply watching this is fun.

[duke_Qa]

i want cool gods. not some god that have been hijacked by some guys grabbing the spotlight and claiming he speaks for him. i want action and drama!

I want gods that will turn you into a pool of boneless flesh if you disgrace their name, and i want them to do it directly, either by a lightning from the sky or by a rift in reality opening up below you with glistening black tentacles pouring out.

I want gods that will take 300 tonnes of the core of the sun, teleports it a few kilometers above a city i don't like, and drop it on them in a hail of fire and brimstone.

I want gods that will bring their inhuman gifts upon your body so that you can wreak divine havoc upon your enemies, until you yourself can ascend and become a divine being at the third right hand of your god



you are not a proper god if you can't do these things imo, and your worship should rather go towards meditation and finding inner peace instead of filling some smart-guy's pockets with your hard-earned money

[CodeCat]

Interesting point of thought: Considering that a day is an earth-bound measure, how could you describe earth's creation in days if the concept of a 'day' did not yet exist?

[Mathijs]

people can believe whatever they want, as long as they don't try to impose it upon others.

You know thats in the bible, right? Just wish I could remember where, so I could make the next mormon doorknocker eat the page...

Of course I know that's in the bible. Doesn't mean I automatically dislike christians for being christian though, seeing as not every christian strictly obeys said bible. Those that do, and thus impose their views on me, I dislike.

It's really quite simple. Believe what you want, just don't go around bothering me with it. They can believe what they want, I believe what I want. Note that ''bothering me'' is rather broad here, I'm quite bothered when I see some religious freaks indoctrinating some kids, even though it doesn't effect me at all. Religion needs to be kept inside one's home, not in public.

Personally, I do not believe in god. And I don't go around telling people who do what to think, or that they're stupid. They can do whatever they want. Freedom of religion's a very important thing. Atheists who actively search for people to ''convince'' piss me off just as much as any priest hoarding his flock. Religion, or lack thereof, shouldn't be organised, it should all be completely personal and individual. There should not be any ''head office'' like the Vatican, or those silly atheist groups. Government shouldn't have anything to do with religion, naturally.

The whole idea of arguing over either side, theism or atheism, is useless. While atheism is far more believable and credible to me, it really isn't for the guy living next to me. It's a matter of perception, and how much you value certain things. The guy next door values the things his church does, while I don't give a fuck whatever they do. To me, religion was meant to be infallible, you simply cannot disprove it, no matter how irrational it may sound. The only way to do so is to collect clear evidence, clear proof whether or not the big bang happened, and if it did, exactly what happened at the beginning of the universe. Maybe one day we can, but at the moment, this isn't realistic.

Just believe whatever the fuck you want, and leave the rest to what they want to believe. Its their life, and as long as their life doesn't interrupt the lives of others, its fine by me. So yes, I do dislike the way christianity is often practised in the States, and even in Europe. I also dislike the way some muslims go around, shoving their beliefs down other people's throat. This is not because I think their ideas are terribly wrong (SINCE WE CANT PROVE IT!) but because they force others into their opinions. This, whether it's religious or not, is never a good thing.

My views right there.

Would solve so many problems.

Edited by Matias, 16 April 2008 - 11:24 PM.

[Devon]

Right...and there's really no point to arguing this, since none of the sides can prove any, because there is no proof. We don't know anything. If anyone disagress....for all we know, each solar system could have a god....he could have just been experimenting when he created the dinos, or even just messing around with us for fun now...the could be an uber god who created god and thousands of other gods....he could be a cell in a gigantic body whose little area was our galaxy...he could really be evil and malicious.....but we don't know. The only "proof" that exists are some science records based on our rather poor knowledge of how stuff works and a book written by people a couple millenia ago with a pretty one sided view on things. Personally, I think religion was invented in a time when people could just do whatever they want with no consequences and some king or duke needed control..so he invented an afterlife or punishing being or great judge. That seems most likely to me...but I don't know for sure. People should really do what they believe, but not try and force other people to the same. I know for myself, I get greater satifcation from helping someone or doing the right because I know it's the right thing to do and I can choose it myself, not because I'm in fear of sinning or punishment in the afterlife. But...again, that's just me, and there's really no point arguing because people do what they believe and what is best for themselves, and will continue to do so for the forseable future.

Edited by YodaWarrior, 16 April 2008 - 11:30 PM.

[Mathijs]

People should really do what they believe, but not try and force other people to the same. I know for myself, I get greater satifcation from helping someone or doing the right because I know it's the right thing to do and I can choose it myself, not because I'm in fear of sinning or punishment in the afterlife. But...again, that's just me, and there's really no point arguing because people do what they believe and what is best for themselves, and will continue to do so for the forseable future.

Exactly.

Although I don't particularly enjoy doing good unless it's got some benefit for me (slightly hedonistic view on things).

[Devon]

I try and help people whenevr I can, mostly cause I have a huge conscience and it makes me feel really good because I know it's right. I know (huge inflation of ego here) that I'm a better person than a lot of my christian friends...really pisses me off when they say "be a good catholic/christian/whatever and help me out." You don't have to be religious to be a good person...

[Mathijs]

Certainly not, no. Sense of morality has nothing to do with religion.

Edited by Matias, 16 April 2008 - 11:40 PM.

[CodeCat]

Though there are some that believe otherwise. And from that perspective, they think that converting others gives those people a sense of morality they believe they didn't have before, which makes the world a better place in their view. That's why they do it.

[Devon]

True....but...there's something wrong with forcing someone else change out of their comfort zone just because you want them too...I know what you mean though. I wrote an essay this year about why under god should be removed from the american pledge of allegiance, and at some site or another with the opposing sides of the debate I saw some quote along the lines of "Atheists have no belief in the afterlife or god....therefore, they can have no conscience because they believe nothing in they do in the world matters. To put responsibility in the hands of people with no conscience is stupid in the extreme.

[CodeCat]

That argument can easily be bounced back though: 'Religious people don't value life because they believe they will live on after death and nothing they do now will matter then. Unlike atheists, they do not believe in only getting one shot at life, therefore they are indulgent and without respect for others, and since they believe in life after death they have no problem ruining the lives of others.'

[Devon]

Thats true...I hadn't thought of that. Well...I guess I have, but only in the extremist cases, like people who commit suicide so they can get to heaven faster...

[some_weirdGuy]

another funny religious joke i have seen:

"i dont question YOUR existence" -god

a lot of the stuff in the bible was just there because someone gave 'us' (by us i mean ancient man), an answer to the questions of 'where did we come from' and stuff


think about it
back in those days, the world as we knew it was very small, not much larger then the domian our tribe held

therefore, the idea of it being made in seven days wasn't so outrageous

as time went on people manipulated the words of 'god', for their own gain. sometimes resulting in good, other times resulting in bad.

thats why things pop up like
"accept others and treat them how you want to be treated", but then next thing theres crusading going on, with people in the name of god slaughtering people who wont believe the same thing as them

religion was a tool to manipulate the people (look at terrorism today, i can garentee that nowhwere in their form of bible is there something saying "strap bombs to yourself and blow up westerners", but some people have found that religion is a good tool to get what they want, and so manipulate it to mean what they want it to mean.


i do wonder though what made the universe begin, what if the universe is in a constant loop, and we are actually god? after millions and billions and trillions of years, we have spread across the universe, and by some accident we cause the universe to implode on itself, after some time it eventually has a 'big bang', and we are created again, born to the inevitable destruction we will bring on ourselves

what if we are actually a sneeze? that 'god' has just sneezed us into existence, and in seconds to him we are gone, but to us it lasts an eternity...

all sorts of fun idea's can be made about 'god' and how we are made