61 replies to this topic

[Ravager]

I'm not going to post here often but I'm just wondering. How powerful will the Uruk-Soldiers and Archers be? Are they still going to be the second strongest (Dwarves being the first) like in BFME2? Or are they going to be weak like in the books? X(

I'm hoping they'll be the powerful beasts that they were in the movie. The Uruk-Hais from the movie is what every Isengard fan want to see. If it's one thing that an Uruk fan wants to see in this game, it's a bloodthirsty Uruk-Hai who is able to take a human down without too much difficulty.

Here's my suggestions if you guys were thinking that they should be just like regular orcs:
-Uruks from the movie stood around 6 feet tall average and weighed about 300 pounds (Of muscle)
-Uruk-Hai Berserkers stood around 7 feet tall and weighed around 400 pounds (Of muscle of course)
-However their armor was relatively weak and fragile; Dwarves had much higher quality and heavier armor (This is why the Dwarves should be the Strongest basic units for this game and Uruk-Hai second)
-Since the Uruk-Hai are more powerful units then elves and men they should be more expensive like the dwarves

I took these facts from the "LOTR: Weapons and Warefare" book based on the movie and this is pure physics; the bigger you are the most devastating your blow with a Simitar will be.


Now for crossbows (Got this from wikipedia):
-"Although a longbow had greater range, could achieve comparable accuracy and faster shooting rate than an average crossbow, crossbows could release more kinetic energy and be used effectively after a week of training, while a comparable single-shot skill with a longbow could take years of practice."
-Crossbows should inflict the most dammage for archer projectiles (Far greater than elves) unless Dwarves have throwing axes like in BFME2
-The range of the Crossbow projectiles could be debatable....
-The reload time should take twice as long as standart bowmen

Here's an article about Crossbows VS Longbows: http://www.thebeckon...ross_l_v_c.html

Concerning speed:
-Uruk-Hais in the movie were said to be tireless and Legolas said that they were running like their master's whips were right behind them.
-Uruk-hai should be one of the faster then men. They do wear more equipment but they have strenght to carry it and make up for it. It is debatable if they should be faster then elves or not...



Well that's what I think. I'm not sure how this would affect balance but I am, 100% sure that it's what Isengard fans want. Powerful, fast but more expensive base units.

Edited by Ravager, 22 April 2008 - 04:16 AM.

[Gaelicman15]

I'm not going to post here often but I'm just wondering. How powerful will the Uruk-Soldiers and Archers be? Are they still going to be the second strongest (Dwarves being the first) like in BFME2? Or are they going to be weak like in the books? X(

They were never described as weak in the book, in fact they were described in one passage as, "greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands." Also being described as having broadswords, not scimitars. If you are referring to how the army of Isengard was defeated so "easily" at Helm's Deep, many of the approximate ten-thousand were plain orcs or wild-men. The Uruk-Hai were referred to as Goblin-men or Half-Orcs meaning they were a cross between Orcs or Goblins and Men (don't go there, needless to say Saruman had been planning this for probably twenty years). My assumption is that the Black Uruks of Mordor were a cross between the orcs and Haradrim. Many Uruks had so many Human qualities that most were mistaken for men (though also being described as looking orkish) meaning, Saruman's spy in Bree and some of the ruffians in the Shire.

Edit: Oh yes, I have no idea in relevance to your questions concerning what will be included in the mod, I am merely pointing out what is in the book, correct me if I am wrong please, but this mod is based mostly on the book and only slightly on the movie.

Edited by Gaelicman15, 22 April 2008 - 04:35 AM.

[Ravager]

Sorry about that, most people that I've debated with claimed that in the books, a man could easily kill an Uruk-Hai and Uruk-Hais were in fact smaller than men. I never really bothered arguing with them because they kept referring to the book and wanted to know nothing of the movie :-P

I've read the books once and that was a ways back so pardon my rubishness. I don't remember them describing Uruk-Hais that much in the books. Wouldn't hurt if we took the Uruk-Hais from the movies and put them with the rest of the factions based on the books. And I did see the skins of the Uruk-Hai models, they don't look like they've been modified too much from the original BFME which were based off the movies right?

Edited by Ravager, 22 April 2008 - 04:49 AM.

[Nertea]

I have no plans to change the style of Isengard play from stock BFME yet. I do know that crossbows will no longer be able to get fire arrows though

You do have to weigh the raw strength versus quality of weapons and even more importantly, skill though when considering your argument. Uruk-Hai have practically no learned skill or much discipline, so there are reasons why they might still be weaker than other troops.

I'd also like to state that while a crossbow might have more raw damage potential, damage values in BFME often represent precision shooting ability and other components like material quality, so there's a likelihood that more skilled archers will still have higher damage than a raw crossbow recruit.

btw, Uruk-hai is already a plural. No need to add an s.

[Thorin]

They were never described as weak in the book, in fact they were described in one passage as, "greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands."

While that's true, they were still no match even for the Dunlendings.

If you are referring to how the army of Isengard was defeated so "easily" at Helm's Deep, many of the approximate ten-thousand were plain orcs or wild-men.

That'd be all fine and dandy - apart from the fact that if those wild men (Dunlendings) numbered many of the 10,000 and are stronger than Uruk-hai (which they are, for Gimli feared to fight them while had no problem dispatching Uruk-hai), then the Rohirrim who defeated them must be considerably stronger than even the Dunlendings.

The Uruk-Hai were referred to as Goblin-men or Half-Orcs meaning they were a cross between Orcs or Goblins and Men (don't go there, needless to say Saruman had been planning this for probably twenty years).

A common misconception. The Goblin-men/Half-Orcs are not Uruk-hai. They are something different, and indeed, if you wish to go into this, you can read the following essay by Thorongil former member of the RA forumers right here. Basically, Saruman bred something (most likely these Goblin-men), but there is never, ever, any mention of Saruman breeding Uruk-hai, and Uruks were most certainly not these Goblin-men.

My assumption is that the Black Uruks of Mordor were a cross between the orcs and Haradrim. Many Uruks had so many Human qualities that most were mistaken for men (though also being described as looking orkish) meaning, Saruman's spy in Bree and some of the ruffians in the Shire.

See above - they are different. That evil looking half-orc thingy in Bree was not an Uruk-hai.

Sorry about that, most people that I've debated with claimed that in the books, a man could easily kill an Uruk-Hai and Uruk-Hais were in fact smaller than men. I never really bothered arguing with them because they kept referring to the book and wanted to know nothing of the movie :-P

That's true. Uruks (Black Uruks = Uruks = Uruk-hai; all originally from Mordor, even those from Isengard) were no match for a man - as shown that Gimli felt Dunlendings too large to fight and yet had no problem with Uruk-hai, who were we would assume not massively stronger or larger than normal orcs, and definitely no match for the wild men of Dunland or the highly trained, (and much larger/stronger) Men of Rohan and Gondor, not mentioning the even better armoured and trained Dwarves and Elves, albeit not possessing the strength of Men (but still more than Uruks).

So, you see that I still agree with Nertea and that the current strength is probably about right - Uruks should not win, man on man, any standard infantry of the Elves, Men, or Dwarves.

[Gaelicman15]

A common misconception. The Goblin-men/Half-Orcs are not Uruk-hai. They are something different, and indeed, if you wish to go into this, you can read the following essay by Thorongil former member of the RA forumers right here. Basically, Saruman bred something (most likely these Goblin-men), but there is never, ever, any mention of Saruman breeding Uruk-hai, and Uruks were most certainly not these Goblin-men.

Firstly, I would like to denounce Thorongil as a Lord of the Rings heretic. Secondly, my apologies in not specifying earlier, goblin-men, half-orcs and orc-men are different, most likely differing due to male or female of the species used in the crossbreeding (ick) an example would be the tiger-lion crossbreeds. Uruk-hai according to my research, were generally referred to as orcs in that they were, Ugluk and his lot were goblin-men (or the other two kinds) but they were also Uruk-hai, The word means "Orc folk" it was a name given to the professional soldier as it were. the lesser wimpier orcs of mordor and Isengard were generally referred to as snaga (slaves) they were generally assigned the duties befitting that of slaves as well as fighting when the need called for it (i.e. The Battle at the Black Gate) and since Sauron attacked Minas Tirith sooner than he intended, it is right to assume he wanted more Uruks in his army but had to substitute lesser orcs for the better trained ones.

That's true. Uruks (Black Uruks = Uruks = Uruk-hai; all originally from Mordor, even those from Isengard) were no match for a man - as shown that Gimli felt Dunlendings too large to fight and yet had no problem with Uruk-hai, who were we would assume not massively stronger or larger than normal orcs, and definitely no match for the wild men of Dunland or the highly trained, (and much larger/stronger) Men of Rohan and Gondor, not mentioning the even better armoured and trained Dwarves and Elves, albeit not possessing the strength of Men (but still more than Uruks).

Well nothing can be better than the Dwarven armour, with the exception of Noldorin Armour (those secrets now lost to the elves of course), however the Uruks armour wasn't weak, it was pretty well made, Saruman after all was a student of Aule, he had a "mind of metal and wheels" it was his craft and weaponry that drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, the half-orcs etc. were described as being man-high with thick straight legs, the orcs had bow-legs, the Wild-men were at least six foot tall, and the dozen orcs that attacked Eomer when Gimli saved him were more than likely bow-legged, meaning they were only slightly higher than Gimli. Have you ever wielded an axe? It's not easy swinging two-and-a-half feet above your head to decapitate someone. Gimli said the "hillmen were over large for me" not over strong. Also there were about eighty in Ugluk's group of half-orcs, at least twenty, most likely two dozen orcs were slain by Boromir, only four of those were half-orcs, and if Boromir the greatest warrior of Gondor could only slay four.... what do you think would happen to a Rohan Peasant with hardly any combat training?

[Thorin]

Firstly, I would like to denounce Thorongil as a Lord of the Rings heretic. Secondly, my apologies in not specifying earlier, goblin-men, half-orcs and orc-men are different, most likely differing due to male or female of the species used in the crossbreeding (ick) an example would be the tiger-lion crossbreeds. Uruk-hai according to my research, were generally referred to as orcs in that they were, Ugluk and his lot were goblin-men (or the other two kinds) but they were also Uruk-hai, The word means "Orc folk" it was a name given to the professional soldier as it were. the lesser wimpier orcs of mordor and Isengard were generally referred to as snaga (slaves) they were generally assigned the duties befitting that of slaves as well as fighting when the need called for it (i.e. The Battle at the Black Gate) and since Sauron attacked Minas Tirith sooner than he intended, it is right to assume he wanted more Uruks in his army but had to substitute lesser orcs for the better trained ones.

Not quite sure what you're saying at first, but for the sake of it I'll just say that Goblin is used interchangably with Orc - as said in Tolkien's Letters. So anywhere it says Orc you can replace it with Goblin and it will mean the same. Uruk-hai, while having a literal translation of Orc [Folk] in the Black Speech, was used to describe the larger variety of Orcs to the Rohirrim or Gondorians, along with Black Uruks, or the shorter name Uruk. Ugluk, for example, was an Uruk. These Orc-Men, Goblin-Men, or Half-Orcs (all 3 are used interchangably as stated in Morgoth's Ring) were of Saruman's device, and those are what he bred - combining either normal Orcs or Uruk-hai with Dunlendings (or so it is generally inferred). The word snaga was only referenced to once IIRC, so to say that the smaller, generic orcs of Mordor/Isengard/Moria were mostly called Snaga is a bit misleading.

Really, the problem is with the literal translations that Tolkien uses - sometimes I get the feeling even he got confused (which sometimes, especially with regards to Hobgoblins, he did!). But as used by Men who spoke the Common Tongue, and didn't follow the direct translations, basically...

Uruk, Uruk-hai, Black Uruk = Larger variety of Orcs, all Mordor's in origin. Still no match for a man.
Orc, Goblin = Normal Orcs ala Mordor/Moria (etc). All Mordor's in origin.
Half-Orc, Orc-Man, Goblin-Man = What Saruman bred. Not much is known about them, but probably crossbred Orcs with Dunlendings.

I could go into the semantics, but that would become very confusing, not least for me. Almost all those words boil down in the translation to 'Orc', so mostly it is pretty trivial arguing over what each term in the common tongue means, and we should stick to what it is actually used to reference to.

Interestingly enough, the other day I made a short essay on the numbers that Sauron (and Harad) brought to the Pelennor. Came to around 45,000 Orcs and 15,000 Uruks. If you want I'll put it up here in all the detail.

Well nothing can be better than the Dwarven armour, with the exception of Noldorin Armour (those secrets now lost to the elves of course), however the Uruks armour wasn't weak, it was pretty well made, Saruman after all was a student of Aule, he had a "mind of metal and wheels" it was his craft and weaponry that drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur, the half-orcs etc.

See above for the half-orcs, but Saruman, while a student of Aule, was never given any particular mention about his skill of making armour - indeed, although he was said to be skillfull with his hands, the only thing he was said to make was a Ring in imitation of the Rings of Power, and as far as we know, it had no power, or very little.

were described as being man-high with thick straight legs, the orcs had bow-legs, the Wild-men were at least six foot tall, and the dozen orcs that attacked Eomer when Gimli saved him were more than likely bow-legged, meaning they were only slightly higher than Gimli. Have you ever wielded an axe? It's not easy swinging two-and-a-half feet above your head to decapitate someone. Gimli said the "hillmen were over large for me" not over strong. Also there were about eighty in Ugluk's group of half-orcs, at least twenty, most likely two dozen orcs were slain by Boromir, only four of those were half-orcs, and if Boromir the greatest warrior of Gondor could only slay four.... what do you think would happen to a Rohan Peasant with hardly any combat training?

From the over large comment you can also quite easily infer they were simply too strong. Regardless, height is a great asset, and if Uruks are significantly shorter than Men (which they are), they are already at an immediate disadvantage. I've not ever wielded an axe, no, and indeed it isn't easy, as Aragorn once remarked. I can't find any mention of there being 4 Half-Orcs killed by Boromir, only that at least 20 Orcs (or a variety thereof) laid round him. But if there were 4, it proves absolutely nothing. For a start, it's perfectly possible for there to have only being 4 - he can only kill what's infront of him. Saying he 'only' killed 4 when we have no idea of their original number, or of what point they joined the fray (such as after he was already shot or while he was attacking other enemies) is completely arbitrary and gives no relevant information to any argument. Again, though, Ugluk was an Uruk-hai, not a half-orc. While I took your joke about Thorongil well at first, if you are willing to persist with the notion about Half-Orcs and the like, you need to read his essay (which I proof read for him at the time, and do completely agree with).

Still, all variety of Orcs are not a match for any man at arms. While a peasant may be a different story, if they have some notion of how to wield a blade and/or shield (which they should, being conscripts) their strength should see them through.

[Elen Naro]

I'd probably make some exception for orc veterans vs newly recruited men, but the ranking system does that. As for Gimli VS man, he didn't need to decapitate them. Have you met many people who are still up and fighting after you cut their leggs off?

[Ravager]

I have no plans to change the style of Isengard play from stock BFME yet. I do know that crossbows will no longer be able to get fire arrows though

You do have to weigh the raw strength versus quality of weapons and even more importantly, skill though when considering your argument. Uruk-Hai have practically no learned skill or much discipline, so there are reasons why they might still be weaker than other troops.

I'd also like to state that while a crossbow might have more raw damage potential, damage values in BFME often represent precision shooting ability and other components like material quality, so there's a likelihood that more skilled archers will still have higher damage than a raw crossbow recruit.

btw, Uruk-hai is already a plural. No need to add an s.

I don't recall Trolls learning skills or having much discipline but they still make a havoc. What Uruk-Hai lack in quality of Weapons and armor, they make up with brute strenght.

Edit: See what I mean? Non-Isengard fans want to know nothing of the Predator-like Uruks from the movies. The Uruk-Hais from the movie are way better and cooler than the books. Otherwise they're just like slightly buffed orcs and it makes the game less diversified.

In BFME2, Isengard was THE most blanced faction of the game. Uruks were the 2nd strongest basic units. Look at BFME1.
Uruks were just a little bit more buffed than mordor orcs; the result was that 70% of the time, Isengard would loose against other factions. An Expert Mordor player would ALWAYS defeat an Expert Isengard player because Mordor had more powerful units like Trolls, Catapults and Mumaks with orcs being meat shields. Isengard just had Uruks and Wargs which were slightly stronger then Orcs, but they only had Uruks (Siege weapons were useless in that game against Mordor)

Edited by Ravager, 23 April 2008 - 03:49 AM.

[Foe-of-the-Nine]

you're basing the entire skill/strenght of Uruks on one quote of the books... Gimli saying that they looked a bit large for him... so what...
1) Gimli had never actually fought a Dunlending
2) The "Fighting Uruk-Hai" do not waver even when the Dunlendings do... read the whole battle...

I would need a substantially more convincing quote before I would side with you... the feelings I have always gotten from reading Tolkiens works were that Uruks were an elite breed feared by men... and yes I've read the Hobbit, LoTRs, the Silmarillion, and Children of Hurin... and if we look historically at Uruks in general we wills see that they won many battles throughout the history of middle-earth:

Appendix A:

quote: In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

though not explicitly stated... the purpose or if you will "spirit" of what he's writing is that the Uruks were a big deal capable of doing massive damage to the armies of men... and anyone who knows history of Middle-earth knows that the taking of Osgiliath was not a light undertaking... on the contrary... it was a fortress comparable if not greater than Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith)


even their name "Uruk" or "Uruk-hai" is derived from the root-term, uruki, which (originally) referred to 'terrors' of diverse kind.

Its plain to me that Uruks represent a formidable enemy equal or greater than men... and note that every time it says orcs at helms deep its not referring exclusively to Uruks... until I can find a more convincing reference than Gimli casually saying that he decided to leave the Dundlendings to the others... every reference I can find to Uruks has an air of dread for their ferocity about it...

[Nertea]

ERROR Uruk (orc) and Hai (people) => Orc-folk (as in Olog-Hai, troll-folk).

Also the comparison between Trolls and Orcs is flawed, that's like saying "since a nuke can kill him, therefore a stick of dynamite can kill him". Order of magnitude difference in size...

Edited by Nertea, 23 April 2008 - 05:32 AM.

[Foe-of-the-Nine]

where did you read that?
my linquistics might be rusty... but if I remember correctly "-hai" means kind... not that I'm particularly fluent...

[Thorin]

you're basing the entire skill/strenght of Uruks on one quote of the books... Gimli saying that they looked a bit large for him... so what...
1) Gimli had never actually fought a Dunlending
2) The "Fighting Uruk-Hai" do not waver even when the Dunlendings do... read the whole battle...

Gimli feared to fight a Dunlending, and not to fight an Uruk. I have read the whole battle, thanks, several times. Until there is an equally substantive quote showing another view, that quote is all you're going to get comparing Uruk-hai with Men. Your 'hunches', I'm afraid, and the feeling you get that there is 'fear' surrounding Uruk-hai just doesn't cut it in Tolkien's world, I'm afraid.

I would need a substantially more convincing quote before I would side with you... the feelings I have always gotten from reading Tolkiens works were that Uruks were an elite breed feared by men... and yes I've read the Hobbit, LoTRs, the Silmarillion, and Children of Hurin... and if we look historically at Uruks in general we wills see that they won many battles throughout the history of middle-earth:

Gimli's quote is more substantive than your 'feelings' - sorry. Oh, and as you started it, I've read the lot, includine all 12 editions of HoME, Unfinished Tales and the Letters of JRRT. Not that that makes any difference or anyone particular cares.

Appendix A:

quote: In the last years of Denethor I the race of uruks, black orcs of great strength, first appeared out of Mordor, and in 2475 they swept across Ithilien and took Osgiliath.

though not explicitly stated... the purpose or if you will "spirit" of what he's writing is that the Uruks were a big deal capable of doing massive damage to the armies of men... and anyone who knows history of Middle-earth knows that the taking of Osgiliath was not a light undertaking... on the contrary... it was a fortress comparable if not greater than Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith)

More of your feelings... You will find similar references to the Haradrim or Dunlendings about how they were scary yadda yadda. I know a great deal about Middle-earth, and as Osgiliath was not a fortification but a large city, it was had no where near the standing of Minas Anor. Anor was built as an actual fort, Osgiliath as a larger city. While Osgiliath was probably more grand, it was certainly not a fortress comparable with Minas Anor. And Osgiliath has been taken and ruined so many times I've lost count, so you implying it was 'especially' hard to take should be taken with a pinch of salt.

even their name "Uruk" or "Uruk-hai" is derived from the root-term, uruki, which (originally) referred to 'terrors' of diverse kind.

As I said before, ffs, direct translations is different to their common usage. However, as you're going into this, Uruk is simply black speech for Orc. Wikipedia-ing much?

Its plain to me that Uruks represent a formidable enemy equal or greater than men... and note that every time it says orcs at helms deep its not referring exclusively to Uruks... until I can find a more convincing reference than Gimli casually saying that he decided to leave the Dundlendings to the others... every reference I can find to Uruks has an air of dread for their ferocity about it...

A formidable enemy? Yes. Greater than men? No. Not until there is some comparison between them that outweighs Gimli's comparison and is more substantive than your 'feelings'.

Orcs also had a far lesser lifespan than men, and had far worse living conditions, as well as far worse training and armour. To say even that Uruks are comparable with Men is absurd based on feelings.

[Nertea]

[philosophical mode]

This argument represents the very substance of the challenge that the RA mod team has had to overcome... the synthesis of completely contrasting book and movie views.

[/mode]

[Thorin]

A mixture of both - mainly the look of the films, yet the units and ideas from the books - i s what you're going for, it seems. And I think that's the best. There's a couple (only a couple mind you!) of good things that the film added, but mostly not (especially the army of the dead at Minas Tirith... Ugh!). Saying that, it the film didn't necessarily ruin a lot of the things in the books, it just excluded them. I go by the philosophy that only because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there (Dunedain, Bombadil )

[Nertea]

I agree, you just need to forget a couple of things (like everything to do with Faramir :S). The main asset with the changes was I think the new sets of design we got (Elves at HD was great art design for an iffy change).

But here's something with Uruk-Hai, who basically are the entirety of Isengard's army in BFME. So we have a couple choices: make them orcy fodder or make them elite. Making them orcy fodder is problematic because it then brings the faction's play style too close to Mordor's in my liking. Making them elite is also tough, because you run into cost vs balance issues, what do you do if all the faction has is elite units? How do they survive in low cash situations? Add orcs? goes back to the point of too much like Mordor. So I think we're going to opt for an intermediate strategy, with Uruk-Hai being roughly equal to your average man. They'll be better and faster than orcs, but probably still worse than a Gondor unit (aside from perhaps their larger unit size). Uruk-Hai will however be significantly inferior when you take into account that Evil factions have less leadership in general and don't get buffing units like captains.

[Thorin]

IMO an Isengard Uruk-hai should equal a conscripted peasant ingame, but shouldn't be a match for any 'professionals'.

[Gaelicman15]

They should be somewhat boosted however, as Ravager said, Isengard only has Uruks and Wargs, not that great variety and certainly no match for a troll or mumak. Take into account that they are nonetheless, regardless of the details or origins, a mixture of human-like strength coupled with the insatiable thirst for blood that an orc possesses. Rage, bloodthirst, anger, and unbridled hatred of every living thing is a much more effective motivator than fear of dying, or fear of your leaders, or fighting for your people, etc.

[Thorin]

Rage, bloodthirst, anger, and unbridled hatred of every living thing is a much more effective motivator than ... fighting for your people

Um... No...

[Gaelicman15]

Oh I see, you've had experience fighting with swords, shields and axes have you? In the heat of battle one of the last things you think of is, "I'm fighting for my people." However if you're a crazed bloodthirsty maniac, you do tend to have an advantage over your enemy. (Unless of course your enemy is a crazed bloodthirsty maniac as well)