61 replies to this topic

[Thorin]

Stealing my quotes Bard?!

I wouldn't put Dunland as an elite minifaction, but the fact remains that, while they may have particular grievances with Rohan and fear the Rohirrim, they are stronger and larger than Uruks and Orcs, and with most probably the same sort of tactics and leadership. I'd give them better HP and AP than Uruks, but without the ability of heavy armour. Just IMO.

[mike_]

Yes, I picture them as shock troops to an extent.
Perhaps they could have access to Forged Blades, but not Heavy Armour? To represent Isengard's "arming but not armouring" policy, if I'm interpreting Bard's post correctly.
Cheers,
-mike

[Bard]

I already had them for 20 minutes before you posted!

Aye, we have an accord with the Dunlendings now.

[Thorin]

Yeah yeah, sure you did

[Nertea]

I love how the debate is going on even though the decision I made with Uruk balance is pretty much final. By all means go on, it's fun to read

[Olorin]

And what was that decision?

Why would you even bring that up from back then? It has no relevance as I said at the time. You have neglected to quote the other person who wrote what they had read of JRRT's works first - clearly intending to 'get one over' on me - before I almost corrected them on what I had read. I wonder why you did that? I know the purpose of these forums, though.

And because someone else started it that gives you the right to retaliate? Anyway, I was stating it for both of you. If you want to know the specifics, your post caught my eye (which is why I included yours), and I neglected searching for his after I had done a quick once over because I couldn't be stuffed (I was very tired - different time zones ), which is why I didn't include Foe-of-the-Nine's. Forgive me if that offended you, but I just want to clear it up. Don't start comparing your knowledge to other's - it's just plain irritating. That's all I have to say.

In terms of health in the game (not armour), I would rank it so:

1. Dwarves
2. Uruk-Hai
3. Elves
4. Men
5. Orcs of all kinds

As you're basing it off the films I can't necessarily disagree, other than I'd go with the books over the films any day. In that case Uruks would be below Men, and Elves quite possible above Dwarves - there is quite some debate here, for Elves were said to be able to take more hardship before death, yet Dwarves were more hardy and resistant to fire, for example.

In this I was going moreso by gameplay than by the books: of course millenia old Elves would be considered more long lived than mortal Dwarves, it's just that you'd expect Dwarves to be more 'tankish' in game (not stereotypically, but Tolkien mentions that they were made by Aule to endure those harsh times under Melkor). Besides, their faction has already been described as one of the strongest melee factions with strong, healthy, hard-hitting units, but little mobility. You know this already though.

There could be some debate among those top 3 - the Dwarves, for example, may make a lot of Dale's armour, and we know for certain that Gondor makes most of Rohan's.

Forgot about that bit.

Edited by Olorin, 27 April 2008 - 10:14 AM.

[Thorin]

And because someone else started it that gives you the right to retaliate? Anyway, I was stating it for both of you. If you want to know the specifics, your post caught my eye (which is why I included yours), and I neglected searching for his after I had done a quick once over because I couldn't be stuffed (I was very tired - different time zones ), which is why I didn't include Foe-of-the-Nine's. Forgive me if that offended you, but I just want to clear it up. Don't start comparing your knowledge to other's - it's just plain irritating. That's all I have to say.

I'm sorry, but if someone is going to compare theirs to mine I've got the same right to do the same to them. I'm still wondering why you didn't see the other person's post, though, considering I quoted it. You just read what I was replying to beneath the quote without reading the quote? Find it hard to believe. I'm just wondering why you'd do that, to be honest. Whoever ran over your dog earlier - it wasn't me.

[Elen Naro]

There could be some debate among those top 3 - the Dwarves, for example, may make a lot of Dale's armour, and we know for certain that Gondor makes most of Rohan's. The Noldor were said to be the best, but that art may be lost. It's a bit arbitrary, but I'd agree that you'd have to separate them out with, for example, the Forest Elves having weaker armour than the Noldorin of Rivendell.

Doesn't the Silmarillion mention that the dwarves were never bested in the creation of armour?

[Thorin]

The Noldorin were reportedly the best smiths of weapon and armour. While there were some gifted Dwarves (Telchar, for example) who would be far greater than the average Elf, I wouldn't see him being better than Feanor, for example.

[Elen Naro]

In forging weapons, I would agree with you, but the Silmarillion does state that the dwarves never knew their equal in forging chain armour.

[Thorin]

In UT it states "Now Thingol had in Menegroth deep armouries filled with great wealth of weapons: metal wrought like fishes' mail and shining like water in the moon; swords and axes, shields and helms, wrought by Telchar himself or by his master Gamil Zirak the old, or by elven wrights more skillful still. For some things he received in gift that came out of Valinor and were wrought by Feanor in his mastery, than whom no craftsman was greater in all the days of the world."

While the Dwarves were the first to make it, I can't remember it saying they bested even the Noldor. What does it say in the Silmarillion?

[mike_]

I believe it's speaking more of at the time of thier forging - of course they'd be the best, when the only competition would be Dark Elves, the first Edain, and...Morgoth's smiths
Not to underestimate the skill of the Dwarves, of course.
However...I don't think in the Third Age that the Elves would be able to best the Dwarves in skill of the forging of armour. Those few Noldor smiths left within the boundaries of the world would likely be too far apart to be able to amass a great store of wondrous weapons.
Wow...that statement seemed oddly poetic
Cheers,
-mike

[Lauri]

I don't really know anything about the subject, but if in the era of the mod, saying the War of the Ring, I would assume dwarves was the best for armor-making and the likes... What happens thousands of years before won't really have a big impact on the mod I'm afraid, not that I'm suggesting your gonna end the discussion\chat\knowledge-give-away-thingie

[Foe-of-the-Nine]

Was Narsil not the greatest sword ever forged? Why would Elendil have taken a Dwarf made sword into battle if it was inferior to one he could have gotten in Rivendell? Seriously... it was a Dwarf made sword that cut the ring from Sauron's hand... not that really proves anything as Telchar and his secrets were lost by the time the WoTR rolled around... and I suppose one could argue that Narsil was not the ONLY blade that could cut through Sauron's invincible armor... but still... Elves make weapons out of necessity... but prefer singing and making things of beauty... Dwarves on the other hand make weapons even in times of peace and their smith work (which includes arms even in peacetime) is their greatest delight... I would be inclined to say that Elves are greater in terms of making "magical" weapons (ie. glowing blades etc.) but Dwarf made weapons are better in terms of actually being strong/staying sharp/etc.... Just my opinion tho... you can't really rely on the Silmarillion much for the WoTR since majority of the great smiths in the Sil are long gone by the time the WoTR started...

[Thorin]

Glamdring, Sting, Gurthang... All greater than Narsil. Narsil was never stated to be particularly good, except for simply being the sword of the King. Though if it says anywhere that Narsil was the greatest sword ever (which it doesn't ), I will concede.

Elves were more skillful in the craft of smithying than the Dwarves, though.

Edited by Thorin, 29 April 2008 - 11:28 PM.

[mike_]

No...only a select few of the Noldor were - Feanor and Celebrimbor are the only ones that come to mind.
And how are Glamdring and Sting better? I excluded Gurthang as it was wrought by a Dwarf
Cheers,
-mike

[Elen Naro]

Wasn't Gurthang made by Eöl? And there are others than Feänor and Celebrimbor: while I wouldn't say there is a reason to think Glamdring or Sting would be better than Narsil, the Noldor of Gondolin were stated to have excellent weapons and armour. I think it also mentioned something about them learning from/being supplied by dwarves. I've always wondered how that was possible, considering that they were hidden from even the other Noldor - Turgon even hid himself from his own brother.

[Thorin]

Gurthang was made by Eol. The fact Sting and Glamdring glowed and were shown, for example, to be able to cut the webs of shelob when a blade of Westernese couldn't. That says more about them than anything is said about Narsil - except for the fact it was simply born by the King.

As I said, the Noldorin Smiths were better than the Dwarven Smiths. I'm not talking about the number of the remaining Noldor - just what it says in the lore.

[Nertea]

Ok, then let's narrow this down to the Third Age. We know that Narsil was reforged by the elves so if you take that as an example of Dwarf masterwork, the Elves could clearly match it. I might even say that Narsil was more powerful when reforged as Anduril, because of the descriptions of "cleaving blue flame" and all that. The Elves also had enough skill to make enchantments that would preserve weapons, as is evidenced by the sheath that was given to Aragorn in Lorien. So I'd say from that that the Elves were still at least as good as the Dwarven smiths in the Third Age, if not better. They also had access to at least some mithril, as Arwen's banner had a crown wrought from "mithril and gold".

However you might also say that when the Gate of Minas Tirith was destroyed, Gandalf said that the skill to repair it lay with Durin's Folk, not Rivendell or Lorien. It would seem strange as relations with the Elves would never have been better with a recent marriage to an elvish princess. Perhaps the skill of work on such a large scale was the property of the Dwarves, where the Elves' capacity to forge a few new/reforged weapons was insufficient in scale to build a gate. If so, it probably wasn't up to the task of making armour for armies either.

So I conclude that Elven smithies were at least equal to the Dwarves' in quality (perhaps surpassing them), but the Dwarves had superior production abilities and were more likely to forge new armour for a new army. This might have changed by the Fourth Age if Khazad-Dum was actually retaken and the mithril reexploited - the quality of the ore might push the Dwarven quality of weapons up and above that of the few remaining Elves.

[Foe-of-the-Nine]

dwarves also had greater access to the raw material as the Elves never did any great amount of mining. The dwarves were able to keep the best materials for themselves.

I agree with Nertea. The Elves may have surpassed the Dwarves but by the Third Age there were a lot more dwarf smiths than there were Elves hence more super weapons...