182 replies to this topic

[Scryer]

I guess it's time for me to start making attempts to map... Anyways, I'm assuming the scaled MT will be used for campaign? And also, will it have multiple gates for at least the 1st 3 levels?

Well whatever the case, there needs to be a larger Pelennor Fields than the current MT map because when the Rohirrim come, they charge right by Mordor's Fortresses. And that's a problem because (assuming that there's going to be MOTE in the Good Campaign's MT...) it seems like it would be a lot for the player to deal with. Some of which include:

-Defending from the enemies inside MT. This can range from Orcs to Easterlings to trolls, etc.
-Have to direct Rohan in to charge into everyone and get the heroes ready. Plus they'd have to try and get Glorious Charge working... Which usually fails .
-If Mordor fortresses were nearby, the player would have to try and maneuver the Rohirrim around the fortress because (hopefully) there would be a lot of orcs to fight against and fortress upgrades (like arrows and catapults) would be a severe inconvenience.
-Then the Rohirrim would have to deal MOTE and their crushing Mumakil.
-Plus Gondor and Rohan would have to deal with Mordor's and MOTE's heroes all at the same time. This would include the 9 Nazgul, Mumakil leader, Rhun Captain (if he's still in), Gothmog, etc. And maybe the Blue Wizards as well?
-Then Gondor would have to make some retreats to the higher levels and they'd have to try and save their builders. And lastly, Gondor would have to be producing units like crazy during the entire siege.
-And Gondor would need to repair siege and upgrade their units...
-Lastly, you would probably have to redirect Gondor's Trebuchets so that they don't fire into the Rohirrim.

My point is that if somehow, the Pelennor Fields was made larger (if it was possible!), it would give you one less thing to worry about because the Rohirrim wouldn't take severe casualties if they wandered around Mordor's/MOTE's fortress(es). And I think it would make things a little less crowded because currently MT is so squished that I get Mordor towers being built nearby my walls. Or else you could make it so that the AI doesn't get fortress upgrades but that would take away the challenge once Aragorn and AOTD (non-linear) arrive to clean up.

I think that the MT map should be a gameplay choice (as opposed to a hardcore Lore-dedicated map) that respects the lore and basic geography. I think that you said that you've already made the choice on the MT map, Rob?

One last suggestion, could you (for the Osgiliath mission in the Good campaign) have the player start out more "in the middle" of Osgiliath? Whenever I play that mission (or atleast on the west side in skirmish mode), I feel like it has too much wild terrain on the west side of Osgiliath. I don't know about the rest of you, but I feel as though I'm starting my skirmish/campaign match on the outskirts of Osgiliath.

So are these all of the maps? They look quite impressive.

Edited by Scryer, 18 June 2008 - 04:42 AM.

[Devon]

Osgiliath is being totally and amazingly redone by njm.

[Scryer]

Osgiliath is being totally and amazingly redone by njm.

Could you link me some of his publically released work? I've heard a lot about this guy and I'm quite curious as to how his work looks and operates(<Grammar).

[Devon]

Check around the SEE forums...he's also the one that did the scaled MT.

[Scryer]

Check around the SEE forums...he's also the one that did the scaled MT.

Probably a dumb question, and my last little bit of off-topicness but what does SEE stand for? Sony...?

My "thank-you" will be in this post because I don't want to cause any more off-topic posts.

Thanks, you didn't have to actually link me to one of his topics .

Hah, I don't actually trust many mods, so I don't get around much in Modding communities .

Edited by Scryer, 18 June 2008 - 04:55 AM.

[Devon]

It's just the biggest mod out there for bfme2 Special Extended Edition.

http://forums.revora...showtopic=57251 there's one of his topics...theres some more elsewhere.

[Rafv Nin IV]

I don't understand why Mordor and Mote should have forretresses at all in MT. It's not exactly as if it's them who's under seige. At most they should have a few arrow towers, more for increased sight than for defense. Mordor wasn't anticipating a large counterattack in the books, nor a months-long seige in which they would have to establish a long-term presence outside the walls.

[mike_]

On-Topic: () I'd say have the Pelennor Fields be a separate map compared to the outer area of Minas Tirith. Which, would feature no buildings for either side - just units and heroes. This would allow for more space for combat. Units and reinforcements could be spawned by scripting - they'd show up from off the map.

[Dalf32]

hmmm thats interesting mike. then you would split up the minas tirith battle into separate... well, battles. start in minas tirith with gondor vs. mordor just defending against the siege. then you would move out to the pellenor fields and the rohirrim would come in and mote and all that good stuff.
i like it

[mike_]

Aye. Hmm..the siege of Gondor.
-Fall of Osgiliath
-Taking of Cair Andros
-Rammas Echor
-Faramir's Gambit
-Siege of Minas Tirith
-The Greatest Battle of Our Time (Pelennor Fields)
That's how I picture it..

[Scryer]

I don't understand why Mordor and Mote should have forretresses at all in MT. It's not exactly as if it's them who's under seige. At most they should have a few arrow towers, more for increased sight than for defense. Mordor wasn't anticipating a large counterattack in the books, nor a months-long seige in which they would have to establish a long-term presence outside the walls.

Rav, that's just gameplay. We could say the same about all of the other maps where you start with a fortress. There's going to be fortresses no matter what.

I don't like the idea of splitting up Pelennor Fields and MT because it gets rid of the challenges that I describe in one of my previous posts. I don't know about you guys, but for me, I look forward to trying to juggle between what's going on outside of MT's walls (once the Rohirrim arrive) and what needs to be defended from the inside. Splitting up the Siege of MT and the Battle on Pelennor fields would be like splitting up the battle at Helm's Deep into two parts (one where you defend and the other where you ride in and save everybody...).

MT (for both the Good and Evil campaigns) in BFME 1 and The Black Gates (for the Good Campaign) are the missions where you really have to use everything that you've learned (depending on the difficulty) in order to pass the mission(s). Splitting up the entire siege into two seperate battles takes away half of the challenge. It reduces chaos but it honestly would take away the challenges that MT is suppose to present. One of which would be trying to defend a city in complete chaos inside and outside the walls. Not only that but you can just direct Rohan to go inside of the walls to reduce chaos and to reduce the challenge as well.

Lastly, I don't see this working with the books as well. It makes the orcs in Pelennor Fields kind of stuck there, if you know what I mean. Splitting up the Pelennor and MT fights kind of make the armies in Pelennor Fields look like "here are the guys that were too slow and couldn't make it inside MT before getting trampled". <That's not a good way to explain it but I guess that (if the battles were split up) it would make the armies in Pelennor Fields look goal-less. If the battles were split up, the armies at Pelennor Fields wouldn't be threatening at all to the city because they can't get to the city. Making it seem like once you do the mission where you defend MT, you've saved the city. Which would also make it seem like the Rohirrim didn't do crap to help because they were busy fighting off armies that couldn't get to the city in the first place. Pelennor Fields in the books and films, shows us the armies that were about to over-run MT. Splitting up the battles means that those armies can't give the player that threat nor would it do the books (and even the films) justice. Besides, what's the point of losing soldiers (or in this case Rohirrim) when the city is already saved?

I'm not usually opposed to splitting up battles (in fact I encourage it for some places, like Osgiliath -I'm not trying to plug in a suggestion, by the way), but Minas Tirith should be a lengthy and highly challenging battle. I know that I said that I wanted to see a MT take on a more gameplay edge, but splitting up MT and Pelennor Fields would not really respect the lore at all.

/Rant off. Sorry about my lengthy post and if it offended anyone.

Edited by Scryer, 18 June 2008 - 07:47 PM.

[mike_]

Er...that post carries next to no weight.
The Pelennor Fields were directly outside the Walls of Minas Tirith - that's...kind of obvious. Anyway, it's kind of void saying that the Rohirrim would be fighting Orcs who weren't right outside the city walls - of course the entire Morgul-host wouldn't have been right up on top of the Gondorian defenders! There's any number of sources that can prove that - namely, logic.
I don't see how it could be interpreted like that at all...just because you've the defended Minas Tirith doesn't mean you've won. There's still that FREAKING HUGE ARMY OF ORCS to contend with. And for them being 'goal-less'..that doesn't make sense. I mean, it's not like they're surrounded in war-time with people who they've been enemies with since before the Sun rose.
That's my opinion, though..

[Scryer]

I'm talking more gameplay here, if you haven't noticed. Maybe I didn't type it so clearly as I thought...

They are goal-less because they can't gain access to the city after you've 'defended' it in the previous battle. Last time I checked, they came to Minas Tirith basically to scratch Gondor out of the picture. They may have wanted to really get into the killing but in the end (from the lore, I believe) they had a goal. Unless they can magically cross maps, the orcs and stuff is just there. And even if the team can code the "Pelennor-Fields" army to attack MT after you lose or something, you can just basically make a "recover" in MT (assuming that the gates and everything will be repaired).

I also made some assumptions based on Mordor's army size. I assumed the worst and that there would be countless orcs constantly attacking you.

My point is not that there wasn't an army outside on Pelennor Fields, it's that in the game do they actually pose a threat after you've "defended" MT in the previous mission? The answer is no because you've already defended Minas Tirith. It's a safe zone now in the game because orcs can't cross maps. Minas Tirith is a safe sanctuary because the maps are split up after you win (of course) and units can't cross maps. In the books, orcs from Pelennor fields could easily get into MT so long as they didn't run into any Rohirrim or stray arrows. <I'm talking about the part of the battle after Mordor smashes open MT's gates, by the way.

I don't know what kind of a 'feel' that Rob wants to go with, on this battle. Mainly speaking you can do 2 things: one huge war or 2 seperate concentrated battles. <I tried not to bias that... I'm one for huge wars because it tests the skill of the player (although I myself, am not a good player ). And besides, MT and Pelennor Fields were all fought at the same time. Although the movie and the books kind of skip over from Minas Tirith to Pelennor Fields, you know that there's fighting still being done in Minas Tirith. Therefore having one huge war fairly represents that in the books.

By the way, this is just a friendly clash of opinions. So I apologize if anything comes across wrong. Rob has the power on this one.

Edited by Scryer, 18 June 2008 - 09:56 PM.

[mike_]

Actually, in the books, there was no fighting done inside Minas Tirith itself. The only Servant of the Enemy to step inside the Gates was the Witch-King, and he was more or less thrown out.

[Scryer]

Actually, in the books, there was no fighting done inside Minas Tirith itself. The only Servant of the Enemy to step inside the Gates was the Witch-King, and he was more or less thrown out.

Cool. I read a different version I guess :S .

[Dalf32]

ok, i will open with refutations and close with suggestions; lets do this. (lol)
even if the gates of minas tirith were already open, how large do you think they would need to be to allow 100,000+ orcs to freely enter through them? it would really be very difficult to squeeze units in and that would leave 95%+ of the orcs outside the gates to just wait for the ones inside the fortress to die. it wouldnt exactly be just a massive charge through the gates of minas tirith, but isntead it would be more akin to people shoving and pushing their way out of a building during a fire; through just one door.

i dont really get your theory that there would be separate things to be watching once hte rohirrim came in (if it was kept as one battle); once hte rohirrim come in there will be no more enemy units coming through your gates. this would leave you to simply mop up the remnants (if there were any in there to begin with) and concentrate on controlling hte rohirrim. unless you only charged halfway through their forces and then turned the rohirrim around, i dont really see how it makes the battle any harder or challenges the player any more.
i suppose if you let yourself get really overrun before the rohirrim came in (like two full levels of orcs) then it could be more challenging but i really dont think it should get that bad.

ok, to solve this we could make the minas tirith (fortress portion) battle one where the player would defend for a certain amount of time against countless orcs streaming in and then after the time was up, if he/she was still alive then that battle would end in victory. this would obviously represent gondor holding out until the rohirrim arrived. the battle at the pelennor fields would then contain the remainder of the orcs (those that were not killed in the previous battle).

thats my time.

[Scryer]

Dalf are you suggesting that they be seperate? You kind of give hints to both, or were you just evaluating the options?

This might be one of those things where we have to actually try it out. I was almost thinking that you could do both for the linear and non-linear campaigns. Like one fight is seperate the other is one fight, for each campaign? Or else the team could discuss it and decide on it, in the secret forums?

I'm going to continue to throw my opinion in here (so I apologize to those who are tired of hearing it), there is no need to have the battles seperate except to make more room. And for that I opened this discussion (or so I believe) by stating that Pelennor could be a little larger since Rohirrim tend to wander right by Mordor's Fortresses. They aren't squished and it doesn't feel squished if the AI doesn't build anywhere near MT. And that was in ROTWK.

I imagine that the orcs would flood the walls and go through the gate as well. If you want Orcs to flood through Minas Tirith, there needs to be someone who can code the siege towers properly and get the AI to send units on the walls. Once they're on the walls and once they get past the archers on the walls, they can gain access to the courtyard. And I imagine that once the walls are overrun, it would start pouring in orcs. But you'd need a wicked/godlike coder to do that.

I do get your point about how you change your focus once the Rohirrim come. I think that it would depend on the difficulty that you'd play with, would determine whether or not you have to keep your focus on both MT and Pelennor Fields. I imagine that a harder difficulty would send tons of more orcs than an easy AI. Therefore, you'd have to do some more Micro managing to clean up MT.

Not only that but MOTE are there too. And I imagine that they will be mass producing a whole crap load of Mumakil, Wain-riders, Haradrim/Calvary, Easterlings, etc. So I don't think that Pelennor Fields will be empty at all and if the AI is amazing, there should still be quite a bit of orcs on the walls at that time. Which means that they could climb down into the courtyard. Besides MOTE could gain access inside MT. This would depend on the timers but by the time you have a moment to completely clean up MT, Aragorn would probably show up.

Like I said, it really depends on what kind of a feel that Rob wants MT to give the player.

This is a little off-topic but could allies use each other's ladders and Siege towers? I don't think that they can, but I realize that in the MT battle, the MOTE don't have any way to climb walls as far as I know.

[robnkarla]

Well, I've thought about Minas Tirith quite a lot and whether to split up the battle/region or not.

First I'll cover the living map - there really is not that much room on the living map to create a territory. It would look really crowded, and MT (which will likely be a capital in games) will just not function that well (heroes climing the mountains on the map.) If I were to do a seperate map I would want do a large scale Rammas Echor map rather than the fields. I think it would suit better as a strategical position.

So for the living map - I've had to cut other regions like crossroads (one of my favorite maps) out just because of the lack of room, so it's not going to be added there.

Non-linear campaign - Outside of the living map thing, I really can't do this without better scripting control. The only way to get to MT would be to go through the fields meaning that would be the first battle, which kinda defeats the purpose. So in the non-linear campaign I'm leaning to no on this.

Linear campaign - this is the only place where we would split up the maps to convey the time of passing, and gain a larger ground for the battle. But there is one huuuuuge drawback to this in my opinion. Gameplay. It breaks up the battle into pieces where it will feel less like one major battle. One of the best parts of the BFME1 mission was having everything flow together (and many of the custom maps that have been done.) You have to do the whole mission at once, no checkpoints, nothing but sheer survival. Splitting up the mission would mean load times, break in intensity, and such. So I'm leaning against splitting it up here as well.


All that said, I wouldn't say that the Minas Tirith and Osgiliath maps are the only ones envisioned in this timeframe/battle. I thought there was somthing in between the two that I think would suit better as it's own mission

Robert J.

[Scryer]

All that said, I wouldn't say that the Minas Tirith and Osgiliath maps are the only ones envisioned in this timeframe/battle. I thought there was somthing in between the two that I think would suit better as it's own mission

Robert J.

Want to elaborae on that? You've picked at my curiosity now....

And thanks for the explanations!

Edited by Scryer, 19 June 2008 - 01:00 AM.

[Shikari]

Wait and See.....

Edited by Shikari, 19 June 2008 - 03:38 AM.