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Oh dear, Britain.


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#1 Vortigern

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:40 PM

My dear old country has just suffered yet another blow to our personal freedoms, as Gordon Brown has scraped through his 42-day bill. For those of you who have been too preoccupied with the USA at the moment (i.e. most of the world) this bill means that terror suspects can be held for 42 days without being charged. Why this is necessary I have no idea.

The bill passed by 315 votes to 306, one of the narrowest margins in recent history. Or any history, for that matter. The 9 votes of the Democratic Unionist Party, the Northern Irish right-wing idiot party, were apparently bought over with promises not to interfere with the Embryology and Fertility Bill, which deal with the illegality of abortion in NI, something very close to their fascist, God-bothering hearts.

The premise is that anybody, any man or woman, boy or girl, old or young, black or white, can be held for 6 weeks without ever being told why. I'm sure you can imagine the effect this has on someone's life. When you emerged blinking and bedazzled into the daylight you would have lost your job, your family would have been evicted or be running low on savings (assuming you have a family), you wouldn't have spoken to or seen anyone you know in quite some time, and your life is generally ruined. And you don't know why. Bear in mind that the law states you are only allowed one telephone call upon arrest. That's one telephone call in six weeks. People being held for questioning aren't even allowed visitors, in case they come to give details of collaborative stories or some such bollocks.

The only way this has passed is that Mr Brown has said he will pay £3000 compensation, per day, every day over the old 28-day limit, for anyone not charged. So, were you held for the full time and not charged, you would receive £42k in compensation. Of course, you'd probably then be taxed on this. And you still wouldn't have a job. And your wife might have left you. Also you should be aware that Britain does not have £42k to pay out to anyone they suspect. Britain is, sadly, a poor country, in dire straits. Our once-proud nation is at its wit's end.

Happily there is still some hope, in the shape of the common-sense-based House of Lords, our second chamber. While they do not have the power to veto the bill, they can send it back and try to convince people that it's not worth voting for. Hopefully, as such a small margin is involved, they will be successful in converting the five minds needed. Given that there are already 36 Labour rebels over this (Labour are the incumbent party, of which Gordon Brown is leader), we're in with a shot.

Interestingly, the major point that this was pushed through on was that our police force needs more time to deal with these suspects because we have a serious security threat. Forgive me for thinking, but doesn't America have a similar, if not greater, security threat to deal with? The law in the US of A allows suspects to be held for 2 days without charge. Two. Not forty-two. Wherefore is it necessary? Do we just have incompetent police? If so, why have they just been given a multi-billion pound pay rise that they have demanded be backdated to last September? Something's amiss here, methinks.

To conclude, it's not law yet, but it's terrifying that it could be. Even 28 days was too long. The world could have fallen to a zombie infestation in that time.
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#2 Elerium

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:47 PM

They approved this!?

I sure as hope to hell that the House of Lords rejects this bill, 28 days is enough. Maybe ol Gordon should start doing something about crime on the streets rather than plaguing on fears of Islamic fundamentalism eh?

Edited by Elerium, 11 June 2008 - 10:52 PM.

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#3 Soul

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 10:48 PM

I hope it gets the boot, cause 42 days is ridiculous.

Edited by Soul, 11 June 2008 - 10:53 PM.

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#4 Tom

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 03:21 PM

Well fuck the lot of you. Unlike the rest of you my head isn't lobbied within someones asshole and I can see that terror cases are getting more and more complex. I was completely for the 42 day limit and I'm glad it's going through.

I hope you are still saying that when you are held for "thought crime" without trial for 42 days. There are people who are still under "house arrest" with no trial and are tracked in the UK even though there is no evidence for the crimes they were arrested for but not trialed for. Fuck oppressive legislation. Liberty is the freedom to not have government managing us. If you see this as anything less than the destruction of our civil rights but private interests and globalist idealists you are an idiot. If people start resisting the push for globalism/world government, this is what this legislation will be used for. Terrorism is merely a false pretext.

#5 Phil

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 03:53 PM

Terrorism is a farce that allows influental people to implement fascist policies without anyone complaining.

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#6 OmegaBolt

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 05:32 PM

Meh, I actually agree with 42 days.

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#7 Tom

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 06:55 PM

Why do you agree with it? Its orwells 1984 coming true.

#8 Banshee

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Posted 12 June 2008 - 10:18 PM

Terrorism is a farce that allows influental people to implement fascist policies without anyone complaining.


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#9 Vortigern

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 12:29 AM

Meh, I actually agree with 42 days.


I think you and Caspa are both completely wrong. 28 days was too far. Even 14 days was too far. I'm not a particularly liberal-minded person, but I can imagine that it's only so long between the erosion of basic civil liberties like this to the demolition of the rest. Identity cards were another move towards this. I don't know how everybody refuses to see it, but Britain and the world at large is slowly heading towards a controlled state.

Although the thing that really got me riled about this whole thing was that most of the politicians who have voted for it have done so not because they believe in the truth of the matter, but because they are trying to save their jobs or stand to gain something from the PM from having been on his side over this. Gordon Brown especially is guilty of this. His reign so far has been a series of dramatic failures, some of which were not his fault, but he needed a policy to rally behind and stand up for. This was it. The fact that it's completely in opposition to everything the Labour party traditionally stands for, as well as everything decades of past governments have tried to build for our benefit, is neither here nor there. It's just an idea to him.
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#10 Fire Ze Missiles!

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 10:35 PM

I'm with the liberals here. As was pointed out on Question Time, giving people longer to do something just means that they will take longer to do it. I mean, I know it's not quite on a par, but it's for similar reasons that the government is abandoning coursework done at home in education - it's just not efficient. It annoys me that modern politics is more about making oneself look good than than the good of the country, and that the politicos are quite happy to largely contradict themselves whenever they feel like it.
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#11 MSpencer

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 11:12 PM

A fact of police work: sometimes investigations take time.
Another fact of police work: you shouldn't be detaining anyone until you have either all the proof you need to make a case, or you have the drugs, the money, and the guns on the table.
Basically, they didn't need 42 days in The Wire.
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#12 OmegaBolt

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 12:24 AM

42 days is hardly a life time. Better than 42 deaths from a car bomb or a suspicious sherbet packet.

I think you and Caspa are both completely wrong.

Hey, I think your completely wrong. How weird is that?

28 days was too far. Even 14 days was too far. I'm not a particularly liberal-minded person, but I can imagine that it's only so long between the erosion of basic civil liberties like this to the demolition of the rest. Identity cards were another move towards this. I don't know how everybody refuses to see it, but Britain and the world at large is slowly heading towards a controlled state.

I don't fail to see it, I just don't care to go against it. Personally keeping a limited amount of tabs on everyone isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes it easier to keep this country big and powerful, make sure our history doesn't go to the oh-so-friendly Americans.

Ha, I guess I'm an empire building fascist. Awesome.

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#13 Vortigern

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 08:09 PM

I have no problem with empire-building fascists, I just think basic liberties should be observed. Hold terrorists for as long as you need, by all means, but just charge them with something! It's mostly the 'without charge' part that I take offence at. This wouldn't be a problem if they just said to people "You are hereby charged with intent to cause terror and public disorder" or something.

@ what MSpencer said: All true. Imagine if Jack Bauer had needed 42 days to solve everything?
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#14 Mastermind

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 08:13 PM

42 days is hardly a life time. Better than 42 deaths from a car bomb or a suspicious sherbet packet.

I think you and Caspa are both completely wrong.

Hey, I think your completely wrong. How weird is that?

28 days was too far. Even 14 days was too far. I'm not a particularly liberal-minded person, but I can imagine that it's only so long between the erosion of basic civil liberties like this to the demolition of the rest. Identity cards were another move towards this. I don't know how everybody refuses to see it, but Britain and the world at large is slowly heading towards a controlled state.

I don't fail to see it, I just don't care to go against it. Personally keeping a limited amount of tabs on everyone isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes it easier to keep this country big and powerful, make sure our history doesn't go to the oh-so-friendly Americans.

Ha, I guess I'm an empire building fascist. Awesome.

All I've got to say is thank god we had a revolution a couple hundred years ago.
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#15 OmegaBolt

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 12:01 AM

All I've got to say is thank god we had a revolution a couple hundred years ago.

Ha, why? Because I believe in structured freedom rather than "we can do anything we want damnit, it's our God given right as Americans"?

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#16 Phil

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 11:29 AM

Structured freedom? You mean systematic oppression, I take it. Also, the US isn't exactly the No. 1 example for civil rights (anymore).

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#17 Ash

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 11:53 AM

I don't tend to agree with Michael Howard on many things, but "We're doing the terrorists' job for them by removing our own peoples' freedom" is one thing I do agree with.

Let's hope the toffs have the right idea and bounce this.

#18 Grizzlez

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 05:14 PM

I think people are missing the compensation part. Basically the police won't hold someone longer than 28 days unless they are pretty sure they can find something because it doesn't look good if they are consantly giving money to people they can't charge. I do think 42 days is a long time to be held without reason, however if the police actually use that extended time well it could mean a reducton in terrorist activities. The compensation is probably more for the police than the 'victims' because it puts pressure on them to prove something, and stops them from just dragging out the investigations.
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#19 Mastermind

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 08:32 PM

All I've got to say is thank god we had a revolution a couple hundred years ago.

Ha, why? Because I believe in structured freedom rather than "we can do anything we want damnit, it's our God given right as Americans"?

Structured freedom? What the hell is that oxymoron supposed to mean?
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Well, when it comes to writing an expository essay about counter-insurgent tactics, I'm of the old school. First you tell them how you're going to kill them. Then you kill them. Then you tell them how you just killed them.

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:19 AM

42 days is hardly a life time. Better than 42 deaths from a car bomb or a suspicious sherbet packet.

I think you and Caspa are both completely wrong.

Hey, I think your completely wrong. How weird is that?

28 days was too far. Even 14 days was too far. I'm not a particularly liberal-minded person, but I can imagine that it's only so long between the erosion of basic civil liberties like this to the demolition of the rest. Identity cards were another move towards this. I don't know how everybody refuses to see it, but Britain and the world at large is slowly heading towards a controlled state.

I don't fail to see it, I just don't care to go against it. Personally keeping a limited amount of tabs on everyone isn't necessarily a bad thing. It makes it easier to keep this country big and powerful, make sure our history doesn't go to the oh-so-friendly Americans.

Ha, I guess I'm an empire building fascist. Awesome.

All I've got to say is thank god we had a revolution a couple hundred years ago.



Yes nice job, your country is currently war-mongering, is "backwards" for a "democracy", not to mention the economy will hit the shitter as the value of the USD continues to fall.

Yes i said it, america just like isreal is on the path to destruction, but we seal our own fates, yes?




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