40 replies to this topic

[mike_]

Right..something that got tossed into my head earlier, and has since been jumbled and enlarged from that little, tiny, snowball into a massive, flaky, snow...boulder

Anyway...what are the chances that the two Blue Wizards, Allatar and Pallando, were also known as Gothmog, Lieutenant of Morgul, and the Mouth of Sauron, Lieutenant of Barad-dur?

Yes...I know but bare with me.

The Mouth. He is said to have been a descendant of the Black Numenoreans; what exactly defines them? It's said that the Istari came to Middle-earth in the guise of Men. It could be that this Istar (Allatar?) came to Middle-earth in appearance of a Black Numenorean in order to gain their trust more quickly. Anyway, assuming this is what happened, it could have been that he himself fell into their ways and became corrupted, eventually coming to power among them - and Sauron. Due to his corruption and fall from grace, Allatar would have lost the majority of his former power; and the trade-off of learning dark arts from Sauron wouldn't have been enough to place him above most of the Nazgul in strength, or keep him above being frightened by Aragorn.
If this is how it went down, it explains the mysterious power of the Mouth of Sauron's voice and the dark strength of his words.

Gothmog. His identity is left heavily ambiguous; whether he's the third-in-command of the Nazgul, a high-up Orc Chieftain, or a Black Numenorean is unknown. What if was a fallen Istari? I'll assume Pallando. It could be that he, like Allatar, at first followed his orders from the Valar - the pair traveled into the East to try and keep the Men there from following Sauron into darkness. It could be for him, that, like Allatar, he became corrupted by those he sought to protect. Eventually, he could have come to power among the Easterlings, and then earned the attention of Sauron by allying the Men of Rhun, Khand, and Harad. It could be that he was Umbar when Sauron contacted him and brought him to Mordor. From there he became the Lieutenant of Morgul, placed as the second-in-command of the Witch-king, being not as powerful as him due to his loss of power due to corruption.


So..yeah just a theory. Well, two. Hehe. Discuss!

[Elvenlord]

Oh yeah, sure, don't give me any credit. I see how it is.

[tomy]

Well, I disagree with your first theory. Tolkien said he was a man, that's enough to prove it xD

However, the second one is very interesting. I always imagined Gothmog as someone very powerfull (he had to be as he was named after the Lord of the Balrogs!). Well, I'm at least sure he was not an orc (as in the movie). It isn't a name for a nazgul, I just feel that a nazgul wouldn't be named like that. That leaves black numenorean, which kinda doesn't feel right either.
So yeah, he MUST be something different. Could be an Istari

Edited by tomy, 05 July 2008 - 10:10 PM.

[mike_]

Elven, don't say that lol. You said me post it, after all it's my idea..

As for the Mouth, I agree to an extent. It could be that he appeared as a Black Numenorean, and due to his fall from grace, became mortal.

[Elvenlord]

I said for you to post it, not to exclude me entirely.

Another thing to consider that we discussed. Look at them both together. They were both lieutenants. They were both stationed at an entrance to mordor, Mouth at the Gate and Gothy at Morgul. So, it seems they held very similar postions, which suggests a similarity. Which fit in with the two Blue wizards, as they are regarded as equal, so it makes sense for them to have similar postions.....

[Lauri]

Well, as it all sounds rather interesting, I doubt it very much...

Don't think they'd change their wonderful blue clothes...

[mike_]

I'm doubtful of it myself, but it's interesting to talk about nonetheless

[Dalf32]

im skeptical but its an interesting thought...

[Mathijs]

Possible.

Not probable.

[shadowcreature]

Very interesting theories, but would they want to give up all that hair?

[njm1983]

I seem to clearly remember reading that the blue wizards do not come into these tales. Wouldnt that make them part of them if they were Lts of mordor? So very creative idea but no, not really, no.

[CIL]

Peculiar... I haven't heard such nonsense like that supported with fact so well... Anyways, as I said before, I doubt it is true. Anyways, who said Orcs couldn't get VERY strong? Some in the First Age were strong enough to actually survive (for a time) a sword duel with a great Elvenking like Thingol. Anyways, it was also likely that Alatar did not fall, in case you forgot his Quendi name. It was unlikely that Pallando fell either but if he did, something like WotE was most likely to happen, in my opinion. At any rate, I'm to lazy to back this up with fact or peek into my Silmarillion, Wikipedia, Unfinished Tales, or LotR books or anything else right now in order to support this crap with any fact. I'm just taking stuff off the top of my head.

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 10 July 2008 - 06:38 AM.

[njm1983]

A Maia of the people of Oromë and a friend to Alatar, Pallando was selected by the Valar as the last of the five beings to be sent eastward across the Great Sea to become Wizards. Alatar and Pallando were together known as the Ithryn Luin, the Blue Wizards. They wandered far from the northwestern shores of Middle-earth, exploring the distant eastern and southern lands. Their fate is never told, but it seems that, like Saruman, they fell into darkness, and Tolkien hints that they were responsible for the founding of strange cults in distant lands.

ok so Im a little off on from what I had said, this is from the encyclopedia of arda on pallando, since "their fate is never told" it would be reasonable that the mouth of sauron couldnt be one of them because we know his fate.

[Allathar]

Actually, we don't know the fate of the Mouth of Sauron. In the movies he got his head chopped of by Aragorn, but in the books he simply rides away after which the orc armies come.

[Mathijs]

After Sauron's defeat, the Mouth of Sauron travels East and begins to once again stir evil in the hearts of Men. He then reveals himself as...

Lord Khôragan.

Or so Lauri and I say.

[Lauri]

Not after the WotR...
Before that part we know his history Some of it... He was suppose to be with Sauron since the rise of his great tower, or something... Meaning, either the first rise, making him quite the old lad, or the second rise, making him alot younger...

[Myrdin]

Dont think that MoS was former a blue wizard, certainly his woice is a power itself, but even if they become corrupted, they would have been stronger, than MoS was.

btw, i think Gandi would notice that one of his former "brethrens" stands before him - when they encountered Mouth of Sauron ( which could eventually slide into pretty interesting dialoge, but since nothing like that happened ...)

[mike_]

But yeah. I'm fully aware that this is most likely not what happened. Just a theory I (and elven ) made up yesterday. Which is why the title is called "A Theory" not "I had a seance with the Professor, and look what I found out!"

EDIT: Wait, CIL, you own teh Wiki??????????????????????????????NO WAI!!

Edited by mike_, 06 July 2008 - 09:08 PM.

[Devon]

Hell...

[Puppeteer]

A different theory at least, as proposed by Wote

Edited by Puppeteer, 09 July 2008 - 05:26 PM.