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A theory: Arda = Earth?


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#1 tomy

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 04:21 PM

Well, I'm not completely sure if this 100% a theory because there were some references to this in The Hobbit. Still I don't think those really count because it was an early work. Either way, I will present some evidence that wmay be unknown to most of you.

Theory: When Tolkien thought of the world he created, he wasn't trying to invent a whole new world, he just wanted to invent the forgotten past of the same world in wich we are living now. So all the things that happened in his works would have happened in the real world so long ago in history that none can remember it.

NOTE: when I told these things to people, some thought that I believe that these things actually happened. I don't :p , I just think it was what Tokien intended to make.

Before analysing the evidence open your mind and try to think the way someone of thousands of years ago would have thought.

EVIDENCE

Middle Earth: in the center (Europe?) of the continent happened most of the action. In the south (Africa?), lived the Haradrim, who were people of dark skin (Tokien himself said so). And in the far east there was Rhun, inhabitated by the mysterious Easterlings. Asian eyes could have seemed mysterious to primitive Europeans.

Nobody had ever explroed deep into the Southern of Eastern lands, so there was no way to know how large they really were.

We know also that it was a wide and vast land with many kingdoms, and strange and unexplored places.

From the Tolkien Gateway. Were these the Asian civilizations?

Valinor: past the ocean to the west was Valinor, or the Undying lands, where no mortal had ever gone (America?)

Numenor: my theory on numenor is that it's fall is a legend, but its existance was true: in maps it was located between Middle Earth and Valinor. This maps could have been wrong, and most of my theory will be based on maps being not 100% accurate (see ahead) for logical reasons: it was a long time ago and people did not have the elements to make accurate maps. So Numenor could have been the UK or Greenland. Both are located in between, but north of both continents, so poor mapping was the reason it was never found again as Numenor.

People in Middle Earth: in the south there was the Kingdom of Gondor. The people of Gondor had dark hair and dark eyes, like southern Europeans. North of Gondor was Rohan, whose people had blonde hair, like Northern Europeans. And, as I have already mentioned before, in Harad (south) there were dark skinned people, like Africa, and in Rhun there were mysterious people (that could have been Asians to eyes of ancient Europeans)
By the end of the third age, elves travelled to the west never to return, most dwarves had been killed, all dragons and other monsters were killed. Orcs and trolls die during the fall of Sauron. All these things leave humans alone in the world, just like they are now.


Dark Land, also referred to as Dark Country is a mysterious continent south of Middle-earth. No Elves or Dwarves live here, but there could be wild Men here. The Númenóreans probably visited it on their long journeys, although it is not known if they established dwellings there.
As seen in the Ambarkanta, it occupies a position on Arda much like Antarctica and Australia do compared to Eurasia, if Antarctica and Australia were one land-mass.
Before Africa was visited by people from Europe, it was known as the "Dark Land". It is possible that Tolkien could have been inspired by this

From the Tolkien gateway

Other facts:
In the north of Middle Earth it was cold, just like in the real world.
In the known Harad there were deserts, just like in Northern Africa.
There was a ring of stone surrounded the Trees of Valinor. There is a ring of stones in Stonehenge, England, that was built in ancient times and we still don't know what it was for.
Arda was round, and there was one Moon and one Sun.
If you compare Middle Earth with Europe using maps, you will find that many details such as rivers or mountains are similar.

If I can think of more things I will add them.

Edited by tomy, 12 July 2008 - 04:28 PM.

'Tall ships and tall kings
three times three.
What brought they from the foundered land
over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
and one white tree.'

#2 m@tt

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 04:32 PM

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#3 Puppeteer

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 05:54 PM

The Shire I think was intended to be England according to some old theories, but your theory is not new.

#4 BMWteen

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:39 AM

Wat kind of map is that? its core.

#5 CIL

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:54 AM

Some nitpicky stuff... Orcs did not die out entirely when Sauron fell, they were just forced to be more discreet about existing and Numenor probably represented Atlantis. Interesting theory none the less.

Edited by Crazy Intellectual Liberal, 13 July 2008 - 05:54 AM.

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#6 Paladin58

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:57 AM

I dunno about you guys, but that looks like a slightly skewed map of Europe and Northern Africa. The only thing really different is the lack of the Mediterranean Sea. I even see a little boot shape like Italy.

OLD SIG
When history witnesses a great change Razgriz reveals itself,
first as a dark demon. As a demon it uses it power to rain death upon the land,
and then it dies. However after a period of slumber Razgriz returns
As the demon sleeps, man turns on man.
Its own blood, and madness soon cover the earth.
From the depths of despair awaken the Razgriz.
Its raven wings ablaze in majestic light.
Amidst the eternal waves of time
From a ripple of change shall the storm rise
Out of the abyss peer the eyes of a demon
Behold the Razgriz, its wings of black sheath
The demon soars through the dark skies
Fear and Death trail its shadow beneath
Until Men united wield a hallowed sabre
In Final Reckoning, the beast is slain.
Razgriz intrerpretation

Posted Image <-This stays up there for you, buddy!

#7 Devon

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 06:27 AM

It's ME converted to europe...

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#8 m@tt

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 12:49 PM

Well at least one American managed to recognise Europe...

*runs*
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#9 Puppeteer

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:15 PM

Wow that's... unprecedented

#10 tomy

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:21 PM

Oh, I imagined I wasn't the first to think about this, but I didn't know it was so popular! :crazed:
'Tall ships and tall kings
three times three.
What brought they from the foundered land
over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
and one white tree.'

#11 Devon

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 04:19 AM

Well at least one American managed to recognise Europe...

*runs*


I woulda had trouble if I hadn't seen it before a while ago ;) Plus, you mentioned it in the mapping forums a couple days ago :D I think I got it the first time I saw it though...

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#12 Vithar-133

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 02:37 PM

I remeber reading a book one time that mentioned most of this. Numenor is Arda's analog to Atlantis. the shire is alike to the Shirelands of tolkein's homeland. The rivendell is equivalent to oxford, both places of great learning. Gondor is equivalent to rome, at least in position.

That is most of what I remember, the book being called Tolkain's world or somesuch. So yeah, Arda = Earth, in a way.

Edited by Vithar Megilaglar, 14 July 2008 - 02:38 PM.

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#13 shadowcreature

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 03:41 AM

I don't know where I heard it from but the Dwarves were seen as Russians in an Earth/Middle Earth comparison. ^_^

#14 Allathar

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 09:33 AM

In the WWII allegory, Saruman is Russia, and the Ring is nuclear weapons. But that's a different tale.
It has been reported that some victims of rape, during the act, would retreat into a fantasy world from which they could not WAKE UP. In this catatonic state, the victim lived in a world just like their normal one, except they weren't being raped. The only way that they realized they needed to WAKE UP was a note they found in their fantasy world. It would tell them about their condition, and tell them to WAKE UP. Even then, it would often take months until they were ready to discard their fantasy world and PLEASE WAKE UP

#15 Rob38

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 04:54 AM

lol... Saruman is part of the Communist party. ^_^

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#16 Paladin58

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 05:23 AM

Well at least one American managed to recognise Europe...

*runs*

*stabs with a big sword*

Anyway, you can continue with the topic now.

*walks away*

OLD SIG
When history witnesses a great change Razgriz reveals itself,
first as a dark demon. As a demon it uses it power to rain death upon the land,
and then it dies. However after a period of slumber Razgriz returns
As the demon sleeps, man turns on man.
Its own blood, and madness soon cover the earth.
From the depths of despair awaken the Razgriz.
Its raven wings ablaze in majestic light.
Amidst the eternal waves of time
From a ripple of change shall the storm rise
Out of the abyss peer the eyes of a demon
Behold the Razgriz, its wings of black sheath
The demon soars through the dark skies
Fear and Death trail its shadow beneath
Until Men united wield a hallowed sabre
In Final Reckoning, the beast is slain.
Razgriz intrerpretation

Posted Image <-This stays up there for you, buddy!

#17 Vithar-133

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 02:23 PM

Intrestingly enough, Tolkein said that his works were supposed to be 'allegory-free' except for the Arda = Earth theory, but if you look deep enough, you'll find allegory and allusions in his works...

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#18 Annullus The Grey

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 03:48 PM

actually in all of tolkiens writings he intended to create a truly english prehistoric history with tol edressa the lonely isle being brough from itsplace outside of space and time back into the world to give a home to the remaining noldo that had been enslaved by melko (paraphrased from the book of lost tales 1) tol edressa would later become england where the descendants of the gnomes (another name for noldor) and heros of men desceted from earendil would grow. in this early draft it would seem that the noldor had lost the immortality or at least there children at some point did with the gnomes becoming but a legend. throughout his life his story was constantly changing an example being that in the fall of gondolin (origional) there were over 21 confirmed dead balrogs yet he would later write that in truth there were only ever 7 to begin with. in these early writings you see that it is the son of ingwe who brings tol edressa back into the real world to reclaim his kin and the elves of the noldor were actually enslaved by melkor instead of rising up to fight him. in later drafts ingwe would become a high king of the vanyar and thus his son would have no true kin in middle earth in the first place. to end this drabbles when tolkiens world was first created in 1917 or so he was writing an english prehistory which had many allegories to the real world because he was writing a myth about the real world. however it later became a pure fnatasy world that he revised almost constantly until the time of his death
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#19 Devon

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Posted 17 July 2008 - 05:31 PM

Look guys...you can see things anywhere if you choose, because our world has a history where almost everything is repeated. Just because you see something doesn't mean it was intended.

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#20 Ring o' Fate

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Posted 18 July 2008 - 02:59 AM

Hey, here is a theory: Mordor= Roman Empire! Just think, Mordor and Rome rose in power when they first came to be, then fell after a big defeat (in Rome's case, about three, which is the exact same number as Mordor!) but then rose again, but in the end, they both got destroyed inside to outside! Another thing: Rome fell to Chistianity IN Rome, which destroyed the entire Roman Empire, while Frodo (or Chistians in my veiw) entered the center of Mordor, known as Mt. Doom, with Barad-Dur just near by (or the Roman Empire's capital and center, Rome) and destroyed it, to (in my opinion,) stop the Roman Empire, for good. Feel free to ad on what you think.
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